hey krimel,
i am not sure we are quite in sync yet but getting there.
looking forward to your temporal stuff. had to pull this up. don't know if you
are being disingenuous, cos it seems quite a simple point:
(see below)
>
> gav:
> okay krimel is making some good points here but they are
> all presuming
> something....(and what is that gav?)...they are all
> presuming the existence
> of an object 'sending' data to a subject. the
> perceiver receives sense data
> (reflected light waves in the case above) from the
> perceived object. can you
> see the subject and object here? and how they are discrete?
> THIS IS SOM.
>
> [Krimel]
> Oh no! Are you accusing me of SOM. Mercy, that has become
> the MoQ equivalent
> of the threat of eternal damnation. But if you will notice
> what I outlined
> is not dualistic. I outlined a process of energy changing
> form from light
> and sound and chemistry into electrochemical impulses.
> There is no mention
> of mental versus physical substance in anything I said. And
> no where was I
> talking about metaphysics. S and O maybe but no M.
gav: if you are talking of S and O (as primary; and you are), then we are in
SOM. yep that old familiar terrain where objects are objects and subjects are
subjects and never the twain shall mingle.
do you see what a radical stance it is to deny the primacy of subject and
object? it is a revolution of copernican scope.
and it is not heretical to be in SOM, in fact it is very very normal. we are
all immersed in it. the reason i shout it out is to show how ubiquitous and
pervasive it is. getting out of SOM is a team effort: the more we bolster each
other's forays into novel non-SOM territory, the more we can start to map out
the new reality that is the goal of Pirsig, this list (by association) and the
bona fide new age movement.
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