Marsha said to Dave: This is absolutely beautiful!!! dmb says: Yes, it is beautiful and I know why. Because its so full of quotes. Its 92% Pirsig and he's an excellent writer.
But I'll take credit for stringing them together like a good student. And thanks! > > Marsha > > > > At 02:36 PM 8/22/2008, you wrote: > >>dmb said to Bo: >>It seems to me that you must be suffering from a >>very odd definition of "metaphysics" and >>"intellect". You seem to think the MOQ is >>reality itself rather than words about reality >>and so you are altering the MOQ so that it is >>construed as essentialism rather than >>philosophical mysticism, which is a vigorous form of anti-essentialism. >> >>Bo replied: >>Yes if that is essentialism I'm very much so, >>but because DQ is part and parcel of the MOQ I >>wonder how you avoid being a Quality >>essentialist too ... without resorting to the >>Quality//DQ/SQ variety that even Pirsig finally had to abandon. >> >>dmb says: >>Pirsig's Quality is opposed to Plato's Quality >>precisely because it is not an essence. We can >>find this anti-essentialist move in what I take >>to be the philosophical and dramatic climaxes of ZAMM.... >> >>But why? Phædrus wondered. Why destroy areté? >>And no sooner had he asked the question than the >>answer came to him. Plato hadn't tried to >>destroy areté. He had encapsulated it; made a >>permanent, fixed Idea out of it; had converted >>it to a rigid, immobile Immortal Truth. He made >>areté the Good, the highest form, the highest >>Idea of all. It was subordinate only to Truth >>itself, in a synthesis of all that had gone before. >> >>That was why the Quality that Phædrus had >>arrived at in the classroom had seemed so close >>to Plato's Good. Plato's Good was taken from the >>rhetoricians. Phædrus searched, but could find >>no previous cosmologists who had talked about >>the Good. That was from the Sophists. The >>difference was that Plato's Good was a fixed and >>eternal and unmoving Idea, whereas for the >>rhetoricians it was not an Idea at all. The Good >>was not a form of reality. It was reality >>itself, ever changing, ultimately unknowable in any kind of fixed, rigid way. >> >>..................... >> >> >>What is good, Phædrus, and what is not >>good...need we ask anyone to tell us these things? >> >>It is what he was saying months before in the >>classroom in Montana, a message Plato and every >>dialectician since him had missed, since they >>all sought to define the Good in its >>intellectual relation to things. But what he >>sees now is how far he has come from that. He is >>doing the same bad things himself. His original >>goal was to keep Quality undefined, but in the >>process of battling against the dialecticians he >>has made statements, and each statement has been >>a brick in a wall of definition he himself has >>been building around Quality. Any attempt to >>develop an organized reason around an undefined >>quality defeats its own purpose. The >>organization of the reason itself defeats the >>quality. Everything he has been doing has been a fool's mission to begin with. >> >>On the third day he turns a corner at an >>intersection of unknown streets and his vision >>blanks out. When it returns he is lying on the >>sidewalk, people moving around him as if he were >>not there. He gets up wearily and mercilessly >>drives his thoughts to remember the way back to >>the apartment. They are slowing down. Slowing >>down. This is about the time he and Chris try to >>find the sellers of bunk beds for the children >>to sleep in. After that he does not leave the apartment. >> >>He stares at the wall in a cross-legged position >>upon a quilted blanket on the floor of a bedless >>bedroom. All bridges have been burned. There is >>no way back. And now there is no way forward either. >> >>For three days and three nights, Phædrus stares >>at the wall of the bedroom, his thoughts moving >>neither forward nor backward, staying only at >>the instant. His wife asks if he is sick, and he >>does not answer. His wife becomes angry, but >>Phædrus listens without responding. He is aware >>of what she says but is no longer able to feel >>any urgency about it. Not only are his thoughts >>slowing down, but his desires too. And they slow >>and slow, as if gaining an imponderable mass. So >>heavy, so tired, but no sleep comes. He feels >>like a giant, a million miles tall. He feels >>himself extending into the universe with no limit. >> >>He begins to discard things, encumbrances that >>he has carried with him all his life. He tells >>his wife to leave with the children, to consider >>themselves separated. Fear of loathsomeness and >>shame disappear when his urine flows not >>deliberately but naturally on the floor of the >>room. Fear of pain, the pain of the martyrs is >>overcome when cigarettes burn not deliberately >>but naturally down into his fingers until they >>are extinguished by blisters formed by their own >>heat. His wife sees his injured hands and the >>urine on the floor and calls for help. >> >>But before help comes, slowly, imperceptibly at >>first, the entire consciousness of Phædrus >>begins to come apart -- to dissolve and fade >>away. Then gradually he no longer wonders what >>will happen next. He knows what will happen >>next, and tears flow for his family and for >>himself and for this world. A fragment comes and >>lingers from an old Christian hymn, "You've got >>to cross that lonesome valley." It carries him >>forward. "You've got to cross it by yourself." >>It seems a Western hymn that belongs out in Montana. >> >>"No one else can cross it for you," it says. It >>seems to suggest something beyond. "You've got to cross it by yourself." >> >>He crosses a lonesome valley, out of the mythos, >>and emerges as if from a dream, seeing that his >>whole consciousness, the mythos, has been a >>dream and no one's dream but his own, a dream he >>must now sustain of his own efforts. Then even >>"he" disappears and only the dream of himself remains with himself in it. >> >>And the Quality, the areté he has fought so hard >>for, has sacrificed for, has never betrayed, but >>in all that time has never once understood, now >>makes itself clear to him and his soul is at rest. >> >>dmb continues: >>We see this same paradox in LILA, where Pirsig >>says that philosophical mystics have >>historically shared, "a common belief that the >>fundamental nature of reality is outside of >>language; that language splits things up into >>parts while the true nature of reality is >>undivided". He says, "Historically mystics have >>claimed that for a true understanding of reality >>metaphysics is too 'scientific'. Metaphysics is >>not reality. Metaphysics is NAMES about >>reality." He says, "The central reality of >>mysticism, the reality that Phaedrus had called >>'Quality' in his first book, is not a >>metaphysical chess piece. Quality doesn't have >>to be defined. You understand it without >>definition, ahead of definition. Quality is a >>direct experience independent of and prior to intellectual abstractions". >> >>Let me put it this way, old friend. Dynamic >>Quality itself is reality but the MOQ is not >>reality. It is names about reality, a set of >>intellectual static patterns that describe >>reality with definitions and concepts. Like its >>rival, the MOQ is a product of that analytic >>knife. In other words, the deconstructive >>anti-essentialist moves against SOM have to be >>applied to the MOQ too. Its categories and >>concepts are not to be confused with the primary >>empirical reality from which they are derived >>any more than SOM's categories and concepts. I >>mean, Pirsig is consistently anti-essentialist >>even with respect to his own metaphysical >>system. Otherwise, the MOQ would be exempted >>from the art gallery analogy and the whole thing >>would otherwise be full of holes. >> >>I think this is what gives rise to your SOLAQI. >>You're trying to solve problems that don't >>really exist in the MOQ. The problems are a >>product of your essentialist misinterpretation >>of the MOQ. Get rid of the essentialism and the problems will evaporate. >> >> > > . > . > > Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars......... > . > . > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ _________________________________________________________________ Be the filmmaker you always wanted to be—learn how to burn a DVD with Windows®. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108588797/direct/01/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
