Ahhh, the Zenith Sukhumvit in Uzbeckistan, nice place.
----- Original Message ----
From: Zenith Uzbeckistan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 2:03:59 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] Being-Aware
> Ham wrote:
>
> To all MoQers --
>
> We each have our own view of reality, and you folks diligently strive to fit
> it to Pirsig's hierarchy of levels and patterns. Unfortunately, in making
> this accommodation, we all get bogged down in sophisticated terms and
> paradigms that not only attempt to do Pirsig "one better" but are
> incomprehensible to the average participant. (I plead guilty to the same
> mistake.)
>
> Noting the confusion, a few of us have moved toward presenting our ideas
> with the fundamentals in mind. Recently I've been trying to to this with
> Bo, Marsha, Ron, Joe. and some others here, with some productive results.
Thank you!! ...I think...
> First, being and becoming are defined by most dictionaries as "the state or
> quality of having or coming into existence." That makes it fundamental by
> definition. We can't have existence without being, and we can't exist
> without becoming. Does anyone here deny this fact?
Its hard to argue with this, yes, but I'm a bit confused what it means.
Definitions, by design, try to avoid self-reference, but this is not
always possible.
So it might be a minor point, but it would help to clarify whether that
definition of "being" is circular if I knew what precisely the
difference between
"existence" and "being" is. They are synonyms, are they not? How are
you not just saying, "We can't have being without being, and we can't
exist without existing?" I'm just not sure what you are proposing.
The only difference between using "becoming" in the above example, as far as I
can see, is that "becoming" implies a change.
> "Awareness" is defined as the realization, perception, or apprehension of
> what we know.
In other words, "experience."
> Finally, whether your personal philosophy accepts the "metaphysical reality"
> of this dualism or not, existence consists of at least one cognizant subject
> (self) aware of an objective otherness (being).
So basically, "whether you agree or not, this is how it is?" :P
> at least from the individual perspective, it is inconceivable that
> you can know that anything exists without having an awareness of it.
An important assertion.
> Or, to put it another way, being in existence takes the form of a sensible
>(cognizant,
> knowing) agent or entity who becomes aware of being, the locus of which is
> his/her self and its knowledge of a diversity of other beings.
Apologies, but I am in the habit of drawing connections.
Here I see a fancy way of explaining Descartes famous axiom,"I think (am
'aware') therefore I am ('being')."
I myself have never tried to argue that, but you can be sure others have.
If I were to try, I'd ask, what about things that are not cognizant? How can
they be "being?" Are they "real?"
But its actually not an argument I'm much interested in.
-------------------
I appreciate its much harder to make an argument than to attempt to tear it
apart.
I also appreciate (greatly) that you (and others) would go back to fundamental
concepts.
The problem is, the further you go in that direction, the more abstract you get
and the harder it is to say anything about anything.
There are also a lot of basic assumptions involved (such as the whole
subject-object, aware-being) that one must either accept or not, based on very
little
justification, usually.
Always,
Jean
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