Greetings Ham,
At 12:24 AM 9/26/2008, you wrote:
Dear Marsha --
No, Ham. Experience is reality, it creates subject and object.
You seem to be, as Mrs. Slocombe used to say on 'Are You Being
Served?', "unanimous" about this!" That means we're at an impasse
right from the start.
I'm not very helpful, am I? Sorry. I'm an introverted, abstract,
intuitive-thinker (useless). My world is very introverted. What can I say?
Yet I am grateful to have had the opportunity to look for RMP quotes,
because there they are...
I can understand experience as the delineator or definer of
existence, but I have a problem understanding it as a Creator. What
do you believe experience is, if not awareness of being? If there
is no subject and no object, there is nothing to qualify as
experience. How can there be an "experiencer" with no being? How,
then, can experience be reality? Leaving aside the question as to
where experience comes from, this defies even the laws of cause-and-effect.
Experience is Quality, Value, Reality. Value creates subjects and
objects (patterns). Valuing replaces causation.
It's possible that you view experience as a pattern of some kind in
the MoQ tradition, and just haven't mentioned it. But, then.,
you've previously said that the individual self is "a collection of patterns".
Experience (REality) is Quality (Dynamic Quality and static quality).
Perhaps you can elaborate on this concept of experience for me, and
why being-aware is not an acceptable definition for
existence. (I'll even consider a quote or two from Mr. Pirsig, if
he supports your view.)
"The central reality of mysticism, the reality that Phaedrus had
called 'Quality' in his first book, is not a metaphysical chess
piece. Quality doesn't have to be defined. You understand it without
definition, ahead of definition. Quality is a direct experience
independent of and prior to intellectual abstractions."
"The Metaphysics of Quality not only passes the logical positivists'
tests for meaningfulness, it passes them with the highest marks. The
Metaphysics of Quality restates the empirical basis of logical
positivism with more precision, more inclusiveness, more explanatory
power than it has previously had. It says that values are not outside
of the experience that logical positivism limits itself to. They are
the essence of this experience. Values are more empirical, in fact,
than subjects or objects."
"The Metaphysics of Quality subscribes to what is called empiricism.
It claims that all legitimate human knowledge arises from the senses
or by thinking about what the senses provide. "
"Substance is a subspecies of value. When you reverse the containment
process and define substance in terms of value the mystery
disappears: substance is a 'stable pattern of inorganic values.' The
problem then disappears. The world of objects and the world of values
are unified."
"Reality, which is value, is understood by every infant. It is a
universal starting place of experience that everyone is confronted
with all the time."
Ham, don't you think it's time you get it?
Marsha
.
.
Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.........
.
.
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