Andrè, Mel and Group 24 Oct.
Mel before: > > It would seem that the resident of Japan would spend considerable time > > using reason in 'encoding/decoding' the meaning of their own and other's > > actions. It is a cognitively demanding culture. American culture is > > more likely to allow a person to just ask. "What did you mean by that?" > > , then after they get an answer, it's off to tune-up the motorcycle. > > American Culture frees one up from the complex calculus required by some > > cultures and we don't waste time (from our perspective), freeing us to > > apply reason to other pursuits. That would be one example of an unclean > > cleavage of social versus intellect when it comes to reason. Not > > surprising since intellect rises from and is dependent on the social > > matrix. Oh the tangles, kinks and weaving-together-of that we are going > > to find... Most interesting, still "...using reason in encoding/decoding..." I would say using intelligence. To use reason is IMO the exact opposite, namely to look objectively (intellectually) on things. Maybe this is exactly what you mean by ...."one example of an unclean cleavage of social versus intellect when it comes to reason." Otherwise complete agreement although according to the MOQ we all are social beings and sensitive to social signals however blunt our approach. They say that the Japanese culture is completely impenetrable to the Western mind. Maybe there is something to Pirsig's that the Orientals have transcended the intellectual level and gone on to some Quality-like development. In my interpretation: The Orientals never developed the 4th. level into a SOM, thus after passing on the social level - free of an already weak intellect - regained its dominance. (again intellect has nothing to do with intelligence lest Khoo comes after me ;-) Andre commented: > I find this very same thing here in China, Mel which is , as you know, > a very complex society of around 5000 years old. It does appear that > the Chinese in terms of your 'cleavage of social versus intellect' are > much more 'together' than Westerners. Perhaps they are more sensitive > to social patterns of value, recognising their complexity and effort of > making 'cleavage' at the social level possible. They are very, very > socially conscious and proud and perhaps because of this are not > inclined to build intellectual castles in the air, so to speak. Or > rather...they have been there and done that. Again, perhaps this is the said next turn of the Q-screw? I mean as in LILA where Pirsig speaks about intellect and biology (the levels) joining forces to quell social value. If we extend this into a reality where Quality is seen as quasi-level it's "enemy below" is intellect and it will "join forces" with social value to quell intellect. This is exactly what caused "LILA" so much bad press at its publication, Pirsig looked like a reactionary who said bad things about "blacks" (who murdered his son Chris) and about criminals (to intellect there are no such, all are victims). Now, the Oriental development (whatever it is) is at its zenith in Japan, China isn't so far east and more transparent for us. > They have had their Lao Tsu, creating a lasting philosophy of life > within the whole (to which it is useless to add and from which it is > silly to detract) and of course Confucius, (a younger contemporary of > the former) having laid the foundation of how society is to be > organised so that it will last, i.e.strict moral rules for individual > conduct. These rules lead to (and I refer to ZMM p290, Corgi paperback > because they are identical to Confucian thought and teaching) > '...right values, right values produce right thoughts. Right thoughts > produce right actions and right actions produce work which will be a > material reflection for others to see of the serenity at the center of > it all'. Traditional Chinese architecture captures this spirit > beautifully.There is an unmistakable serenity there. Remember that > 'China' means 'middle land'. In their minds it has come to represent > 'centre of the universe' (a leader told me this). They think they are > superior to other nations. In the West this has of course very nasty > connotations but here?????? the leader just smiled and turned away. > The thoughts and teachings of these 2 people (assuming Lao Tsu did > actually exist) are still very much a part of Chinese culture to this > day. Socially they are very tight, friendly, helpful considerate etc. > and (to generalise a bit) their intellectual patterns of value aim to > keep it that way. Very, very interesting, maybe the East and West can meet thanks to the bridge that the MOQ represent. Bodvar Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
