Christoffer, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christoffer Ivarsson" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 9:50 AM Subject: [MD] Using the MOQ
<snip> > Christoffer: > And I say that this is exactly what I have been saying for quite some time. > The Free Market system is a giant who keeps on going, despite occasional > meltdowns - I for one don't agree with Marx on the theory of the Market > being destined to totally collapse at some point, it will continue if it is > let, but at what cost? Human lives and intellectual values is worth nothing > to this giant unless there is profit to be gained by them, and despite what > Platt rambles on about, if the intellectual level can't step in to steer it > on course there is no hope for a sustainable future, mel: The date on the tombstone of the late, lamented, untrammelled Giant-of-Capitalism--who so enraged Marx (before he made his fortune in the stockmarket in London and, later, repudiated his own writings) is July 2, 1890. R.I.P. In his place are his children--none so grand. That date, of course, is the date of the Sheman Antitrust Act, a victory of intellect over a social movement that coopted economics into the near biological realm of individual 'robber-barons'. These men built structures that dammed and diverted certain markets into a private playground. The official term is 'restraint-of-trade' and it is a bioloical pattern dominating a social pattern dominating an aggregate system of intellectual patterns.(the market-behavior) or When regulation acts to reduce restrain-of-trade that has its source in the biological pattern of greed, then it is indeed intellectual value 'correcting' a biological pattern using the social level to do so. Regulations that set standards, such as weights and measures are generally sensible. But regulation for the ideological reason should be looked at very carefully. Despite the root-word 'idea', the movement that spawns an ideology is usually social, and the sweeping 'feel-good' sloganeering of the social rarely has fine powers of discrimination in the world. "Truth" is bottled for its own protection and, thus becomes unusable. I think that sounds like Static Quality. When you look at the market, not as an ideology, but as a simple matter of the aggregate behavior of all people with the click of their plastic, the rustle of their currency, and the jingle of their coins, then you get a sense of the background soundtrack of the marketplace. It has physical, biological, social, and intellectual components. It ain't simple. The intellectual level isn't 'vitimized' by the market, it's part of the aggregate of the market in some partial 'ven diagram' way. But, I think focusing on the 'restraint-of-trade' behavior and limiting the intrusion, much as a brain surgeon tries to do, is the approach to intellect-as-hall-monitor, economically. Otherwise the economy writ-large is too big and complex to go rooting around in for the intellectual or the social or the biological levels. Christoffer: > > because do you really think that the giant is concerned with the > environment? Just as with human life, the answer is no. It is up to the > intellectual level to impose restrictions, higher patterns of Good upon the > social level, if we are to survive in the long run. And to be able to live > with ourselves right now I might ad. mel: Judging from the behavior of American industry, and all the investment in air quality equipment, when the environment is comprehended as a cost-measurable-good, then it enters the marketplace. OSHA regualtions show similar calculus of 'human cost' as do public health regulations. Bitching about the environment might raise awareness, but it also raises resistance when it is done in a low-quality way. Christoffer: > > I don't think that this entails making the economy stagnant - and if anyone > tries to play the "The Free Market is more open to DQ"-card I will puke. DQ > can not be spoken of in a specific way, and it can certainly not be used to > advocate a unchecked Free Market system. It's like using the Tao to > advocate - well, anything. Pointless. mel: Just to repeat, regulations that remove restraint-of-trade by low quality behavior and avoid creating regulation based restraint-of-trade (potentially even more damaging) are potentially in the service of DQ. CHristoffer: > I think that we can bring about an intellectually guided economy, and reform > our social structures at large to make them democratic and with intellectual > value at the centre without becoming to "static". To believe that we can > actually hinder DQ from being realized seems quite weird to me anyhow, and I > keep saying that since we cannot talk about DQ we should talk about the > patterns of Good that we CAN see and talk about and choose the best of > those. The value of human life and the furthering of The Quest for Knowledge > (any) should be first and foremost I feel. > > mel: An 'intellectually guided economy', however, is another thing. Nothing is more democratic than the choice of where to spend money, time, and attention. It is the ULTIMATE democracy to the point of anarchism. The value of human life is rather clearly shown when an issue of People magazine or a tabloid journal is sold and a coin is deposited in a Darfur Relief box by the same store's cash register. We value the starving children, just not as much as Brittany (sp), or Brad-Angelina/Jennifer/the Royals/ Beckham/All Blacks/Bollywood...at the end of the day when the relief box and register sales are tallied. Just seems that the world often smells more like te garbage cans in the back alley, then the flower garden out front. thanks--mel Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
