Gents
3 Mar. :
Krimel to Andre:
> The disservice I am referring to specifically is the claim that the
> Quality of ZMM is called DQ in Lila. There are two ways to understand
> this. The first and the one I think Pirsig and dmb use, is that DQ IS
> Quality. As a result there is no Quality in the Metaphysics of Quality
> only DQ and SQ. Aside from being awkward; it turns the MoQ into a form
> of dualism which I believe Pirsig would specifically like to reject.
DMB:
> The claim that the Quality of ZAMM is called DQ in Lila is only a
> change in the terms, not the meaning. Which is to say you can compare
> statements from ZAMM to statements in Lila and see that he talking
> about the same thing. For example, in Lila he says DQ is "the
> pre-intellectual cutting-edge of reality, the source of all things,
> completely simple and always new... It contains no pattern of fixed
> rewards and punishments". (Thanks for that quote, Andre.)
Right it says PREINTELLECTUAL nothing about pre-conceptual
and in the "preintellect/Intellect" dualism that this forms the right
hand section is not "conceptual" but S/O (the subject aware of an
objective world)
"This preintellectual reality is what Phædrus felt he had
properly identified as Quality. Since all intellectually
identifiable things must emerge from this preintellectual
reality, Quality is the parent, the source of all subjects and
objects." (ZAMM)
> [snip additional quote]
> I think its fairly obvious that Quality here is dynamic and Plato's
> fixed ideas are static. In ZAMM he's not using those terms yet, but
> the difference between "ever changing" reality itself and the "fixed
> ideas" of Plato is a description the difference between dynamic and
> static. See?
Plato was one of SOM's founding fathers and his dichotomy was
Ideas vs Appearance, the former the eternal element (to become
objective) while the latter was the fleeting element (to become
subjective). And when one equalizes "Ideas" with Static and
"apparent" with Dynamic one is completely lost. I rather believe
that the "Summary" Pirsig compared Quality to Plato's eternal-to-
become-objective and MOQ to the fleeting-to-become-subjective,
but also this is deeply wrong and in contrast to Phaedrus original
insight.
> [Krimel]
> Right, Quality is percept, Plato is concept. Ever changing reality and
> fixed ideas!
Percept? Is that the same as perception? Or what is perceived?"
At least Plato saw "the ever changing" as what just seem real but
are mere shadows, while Ideas was the eternal entities that
created the shadows. (The Cave parable)
Bo
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