Hello everyone ---------------------------------------- > Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 13:30:14 +0100 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [MD] Skepticism&Behaviour > > Michael writes: > > The degree of personal vindiction in here is thick enough to cut with a > knife. Its too bad. It makes thinking things through with words in here > *very* difficult. Why can't we all agree to respect each others' views, > listen to ideas and thoughts, debate them, even with vigor, but not make it > *personal*? There are some here who seem to have no problem doing so. > > Why can't we all disagree without being disagreeable? Hi Michael Life isn't always agreeable. This is nothing. We've had some real blow-ups over the years. You have to look past that shit. If you want to last, that is. We are all a lot more alike than we are different. It just doesn't always show.
> > Ron writes: > > Bo, > ?Reading your post only leaves me asking if you need psychological help > a change in medication or you are stoned out of your gourd. Your posts > follow no continuity except for the repetitious argument that one can only > guess is written on wine stained index cards and copied verbatim in a > drunken stupor. > You are soo fucked up that I am at a loss, you are clearly insane and have > some serious problems. Joe Maur is Mark twain compared to your psychotic > babble. > Please get some help. Hi Ron And I thought I was harsh! Guess you showed me. Bo is just one of those unstable intellectual patterns that your mother warned you about. But he's getting better... really he is... > > Andre: > > Hi Michael, Ron, and all. > This was the thing that got me to write the first verse of 'Across the > Universe'.(Untill Marsha posted it) > I agree with you MP that we should separate the exchange of ideas and points > of view, with who comes up with them. They float around in people's culture > and heads and if they contain a degree of quality for the person then they > should be allowed to be expressed. Dan: Isn't this separation what Robert Pirsig was on about in LILA when he talks of Dusenberry? I think it is. What I mean to say is, when we jump into the pool of philosophy we're going to get wet. You cannot espouse ideas without someone coming along and blowing them apart. An idea is a dangerous thing. It doesn't care about who had it or their history. It stands in testament to the intelligence (or stupidity) of its own existence. >Andre: > It is immoral for a society to kill an idea. > > Refutation of an idea, regardless of who presents it, should occur on a > basis of argumentation and counter argumentation with the ideas being argued > about and not the wellbeing or otherwise of the person. And, I would like to > add: from within the MoQ context, so that we can all learn from eachother. Dan: In an ideal world, sure. To be honest though, I've learned far more from the "brutal" responses I've received here than I have from the "nice" ones. Look within. >Andre: > I know that Bodvar can look after himself but do want to say this: > > I cannot think of anyone here on this Discuss being more committed to the > MoQ than he is. He has defended his SOL/ MOQ position for more than ten > years now and has copped flack from many. He has also pulled many into line > when he felt they were straying too far from the MoQ path. And has been > appreciated for that! > > Now, my own understanding of the MoQ is nowhere near complete so cannot make > a definitive judgement.I have read the annotations to the LC however > and Pirsig's comments are clear...when someone has the wrong notion about > something concerning the MoQ he says so very clearly (he does this also when > they are correct). > > Pirsig has NOT dismissed the SOL interpretation. He has merely stated that > if it has quality it will percolate to the top. Simple. Dan: Bodvar is a dear friend. I love him like the unstable uncle I never had. Seriously though, in my opinion, Mr Pirsig dismissed the SOL interpretation by not accepting it. See annotation #50 in LILA'S CHILD. Mr Pirsig clearly understood what was at stake and made it clear he did not agree with Bo's notion, that it would in fact put the MOQ completely outside the boundaries he set for it. "This seems too restrictive. It seems to exclude non-subject-object constructions such as symbolic logic, higher mathematics, and computer languages from the intellectual level and gives them no home. Also, the term "quality" as used in the MOQ would be excluded from the intellectual level. In fact, the MOQ, which gives intellectual meaning to the term quality, would also have to be excluded from the intellectual level." [LC, annotation 50] >Andre: > Bodvar has produced a 'paper' outlining his SOL argument. It is there for > everyone to see and to criticise BUT I have yet to find someone who has > produced a paper that systematically, point by point, shows where s/he > thinks the reasoning/interpretation of the SOL is wrong or misguided. > (I am not talking about the bits and pieces that fly around here somewhere). > And this has gone on for ten odd years now. Dan: That's not fair. The fact no one has refuted an idea doesn't lend credence to that idea. I could sit down and write a paper on how the earth is flat. Do you believe anyone would bother refuting it? >Andre: > Criticise the idea, WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF THE MOQ, support your arguments > with clear MOQ reasoning and please refrain from ridicule. Dan: That's what the draft folder is for. If I write an inflammatory post, I always park it in the draft folder for a bit, just to see how I feel about it after the emotion of the moment has faded. It's usually a good thing as I have thousands of unsent posts languishing there in draft folder hell. >Andre: > For what it is worth. Dan: In the end, kindness is all that matters. Thank you, Dan _________________________________________________________________ Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail®. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/LearnMore/personalize.aspx?ocid=TXT_MSGTX_WL_HM_express_032009#colortheme Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
