[WillBlake] I don't believe it takes collective thought or references to make something true within.
[Arlo] You seem to hold a MOQ that goes inorganic-biological-intellectual-social, or even just inorganic-biological-intellectual with "social" just murking up the waters or providing some background filler. According to Pirsig (which aligns with the socio-cultural tradition and the authors I had mentioned), the manipulation of abstract symbols we call "thinking" comes to be only in a social milieu. It is only by virtue of assimilating this collective consciousness that an individual human is given the tools by which s/he can symbolically encode experience, and "think". That's what he points directly to when he rewrites Descartes to say "French culture exists, therefore I think..." You can disagree with this, to be sure, but to do so you'd have to reconceptualize the MOQ as I mention above. In order to have intellectual patterns spontaneously appear in the human brain without the need or mediation of social activity, posits a MOQ of inorganic-biologic-intellectual. [WillBlake] We are not our thoughts, far from that. [Arlo] Well, on the contrary, I think "we" are nothing but "our thoughts". What else could we be? [WillBlake] Try and feel when a thought becomes language, that transition can be noticed. [Arlo] You are talking about an enculturated being transitioning aesthetic experience into language. You can do this because you already HAVE a language. Without that language, no "thought". There is only biological responses to environmental stimuli. [WillBlake] I have no trouble thinking without words. Some of my most meditative hikes are ones where I refuse to name things I see. [Arlo] Well, to clarify, "language" is more than just words. It includes any and all of the symbolic abstractions we used to designate for experience. A dance uses no words, but manipulates abstract symbols of movement to encode experience and communicate to us with them. In this sense, its better to use the word "semiosis" or if you prefer something like "languaculture". You might refuse to name things, but as an enculturated being, the very act of discriminating a "tree" from the forest reveals not only a semiosis-laden event, but one resting on very nuanced cultural associations of "tree". Walden's meditiative walks in the woods was likely much different than our distant Neanderthal ancestors. Anyways, subject for another thread, I think John started. Maybe we can move these thoughts over there. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
