Hi Arlo, Still sounds like Ego to me. What are we without the social level? I don't believe I am arguing against Pirsig, but supporting his heirarchy.
I was studying an anthill the other day. A layover from my youth. I can say that I am not as malicious as I used to be, perhaps have grown up. I was watching the paths made by the ants as they went to various places for food (the peripheral consciousness), interacting with the environment (the Ego perhaps). Each ant (nerve cell) communicating with another in a stream of movement (a thought). They would then disappear into a hole, symbolizing the epicenter of where the conscious awareness goes into the subconscious inner self. I noticed that if I put a barrier in the place of one of those streams, it would become disorganized, but when I came back after some time, the stream had adjusted around the barrier and was still fulfilling the same purpose. This I akin to us trying to change the way we think through external means. It is difficult because the external self is dictated by the inner self, the anthill underground. If I were to add something containing borax, that the ants would take in to their home, I would have a different consequence. This is akin to the introduction of drugs (legal or illegal). The outer behavior or interactions of the hill would change drastically, perhaps even disappear. Sooner or later a new hill would arise, with the same behavior. Take the drugs away, and things revert back. Arlo is talking about the peripheral mind, that behavior above ground, and claiming that the subconscious thinking is also societal, control by language. This cannot be true, it is the other way around. A society has a completely different consciousness which we are not privy to, in the same way each individual nerve is not privy to our thoughts. While we can change the connections of the nerves, we cannot change their biological nature. If all we are are our thoughts, what are we when we are listening to music without thought? I believe Arlo brought up a similar example with food. I suppose the argument would go that is: we are with thoughts, the music is the social level, and we are appreciating it through language. However, one does not have to understand music to appreciate it. I interacts with the inner self, that is separate (in a continuous) manner from the outer (ego) self. I can ski down a slope thoughtlessly, but I am still there. We are the sum total of our awareness thoughts, our subconscious thoughts, our interaction with the environment, the beating of our hearts, the intelligence of our immune system, the thoughtless passions, emotions, feelings that arise to form thoughts. We are so much more than our thoughts (or ego as I believe you state). The problem with the notion that society dictates thought is that individuals arise (especially in politics), that argue they have a social solution to correct our inner selves. This is dangerous indeed, and leads to the polarization of people through the abuse of social ideas (fairness, security, compassion), who are each trying to fulfill their ideas. Such things lead to wars based on ideology, which can never be won, because the ideology is made up and doesn't really exist. There is no tangible winning, only a subjective sense of one. Cheers, Willblake2 On May 17, 2009, at 3:15:16 PM, "ARLO J BENSINGER JR" <[email protected]> wrote: [WillBlake] As I stated earlier, we are not our thoughts. [Arlo] Then what are we? What else besides "our thoughts"? [WillBlake] I believe that Arlo is speaking about the Ego, which, as he states, comes from the reflection of oneself in others, in the external. [Arlo] Ego? Not in the least. I am saying that "self" and "other" are concepts born of social activity. The "I" is a symbolic locus of organization. To recognize "self" and "other" as intentional agents requires social symbolic mediation. That is Pirsig's hierarchy. As I said, you could argue against Pirsig, as you seem to be doing, proposing an "inorganic-biological-intellectual" MOQ, with "social" playing some sort of contextual role or outright interfering. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
