Greetings,
I've been considering the self a result of
perceptions, and ego (becoming) the results of
time. Does any body see this as distinct?
Marsha
At 12:14 AM 5/18/2009, you wrote:
[WillBlake] I don't believe I am arguing against
Pirsig, but supporting his heirarchy. [Arlo]
Pirsig is quite clear that mental patterns
emerge from social patterns, and he considers
concepts such as "self" to be a mental pattern.
I still don't see how your proposal is
"inorganic-biological-intellectual" with
"social" providing some filler or interference.
[WillBlake] Arlo is talking about the peripheral
mind, that behavior above ground, and claiming
that the subconscious thinking is also societal,
control by language. [Arlo] Controlled and
enabled. I am merely talking about what Pirsig
wrote. "Mind" comes from society, not directly
from the biological level. When he wrote "our
intellectual description of nature is always
culturally derived" he was very clear.
[WillBlake] This cannot be true, it is the other
way around. [Arlo] Maybe, but that is not the
MOQ. [WillBlake] A society has a completely
different consciousness which we are not privy
to, in the same way each individual nerve is not
privy to our thoughts. [Arlo] Pirsig calls this
the "collective consciousness". I don't know
about a society have a consciousness, Pirsig
seems to think it does not. But then he talks
about the Giant having a will of its own, so I
don't know. But the very fact that our thoughts
derive from the assimilation of this collective
points to a structurating relationship, an
unavoidable restriction alongside the very thing
that enables it. [WillBlake] If all we are are
our thoughts, what are we when we are listening
to music without thought? [Arlo] I don't think
you answered my question. If we are more than
our thoughts, then what else are we? Are you
suggesting a "soul"? Or something like that?
When we are listening to music, we are very much
our thoughts. Music is a symbolic language, one
which relies on familiarity with the structure
and syntax of the notes, just as spoken language
relies on this for understanding its words.
Music is a semiotic event. It is not outside
culture, it is the language of culture. You can,
as Pirsig recommends, break out of the "self",
and enter the moment of pure DQ (through
meditation, flow, etc.), but this is a
dissolution of the very thing (the "self") you
are arguing is the core of those moments. Wait,
you do answer this here. Sorry. [WillBlake] We
are the sum total of our awareness thoughts...
[Arlo] Symbolically encoded experiences,
sure.... "thoughts". [WillBlake] our
subconscious thoughts... [Arlo] "Thoughts".
[Arlo] our interaction with the environment....
[Arlo] Not sure what this means. Our
interactions with the environment are, as social
beings, mediated by language. Do you mean the
moment of Quality perception? Or is this in
reference to our biology, which you mention
next... [WillBlake] the beating of our hearts,
the intelligence of our immune system... [Arlo]
This is the hardware in which "we" reside. Yes,
our unique biology mediates the encoding of our
experiences (we "see", and so are able to encode
experiences with "visual" icons, e.g.)
[WillBlake] the thoughtless passions, emotions,
feelings that arise to form thoughts. [Arlo]
Thoughtless? Heavens no! Our "passions" (outside
of our innate biological reflexes) are fully
informed by the cultural language we assimilate.
"Love" and "hate" and "pain" and "heroism" and
"pride" are all concepts informed by the
stories, myths, music, drama, poetry and a
countless repertoire of encoded experiences that
make up the collective consciousness. Before
"language", you would feel "love" only as a cat
or dog. As a social being, "love" is so much
more, and you feel it only after you assimilate
the language to describe it. [WillBlake] The
problem with the notion that society dictates
thought is that individuals arise (especially
in politics), that argue they have a social
solution to correct our inner selves. [Arlo]
Society does not "dicate" what you think. You
are a unique organism with corresponding unique
experience. "Culture" gives you the means to
encode that experience, and as such both enables
and constrains the results of that process.
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_____________
The self is a thought-flow of ever-changing,
interrelated and interconnected, inorganic,
biological, social and intellectual, static
patterns of value responding to Dynamic Quality.
.
.
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