reasoning by virtue of expereince, not deductive rationalization.
________________________________ From: MarshaV <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 8:14:15 AM Subject: Re: [MD] LC: Expanded Annotation 57 At 07:04 AM 5/27/2009, you wrote: > Ron: > Water may be ice it may be steam, change is relative yet consistent. Thinking > that if all is change, distinction is impossible leads to thoughts of > absolute. > Rationalism will do this. Ron, Your above statement is a bit of reasoning, is it not? Marsha > ________________________ > From: Dan Glover <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 7:19:57 PM > Subject: Re: [MD] LC: Expanded Annotation 57 > > > > > Hello everyone > > ---------------------------------------- > > Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 03:02:41 -0400 > > To: [email protected] > > From: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [MD] LC: Expanded Annotation 57 > > > > > > Greetings Will, > > > > Time and change have a relationship, yes? What does it actually mean > > to state that everything is always in a state of > > change? Everything! I'm thinking of the water analogy: If > > everything is water, and there is nothing that is not water, then > > there is no meaning to water, for there is no way of distinguishing a > > difference between water and nonwater. Seems if you translate that > > into change, then what humans have actually defined as change is > > illusion. And if our definition of change is an illusion, how can > > anything be conceived of as constant, as in Einstein's 'C', when > > everything is changing? Against what is it measured? > > > > Can you untangle this mess between water, change and time? > > Hi Marsha > > Please excuse me for butting in. Isn't some water better than other water? I > read where the space shuttle delivered a urine-reclamation unit to the ISS in > order to supply fresh water for the anticipated doubling of the number of > crew members in the near future. > > Now I don't know about anyone else, but I'd rather not drink someone else's > piss water no matter how well it is recycled. Of course if I was thirsty > enough I might change my tune. But nevertheless, I've decided not to visit > the ISS anytime in the near future, at least until they get running water > installed. > > Hmmm, where was I now... I've seemed to have wandered from my original > point... > > Oh yes, some water is better... Let's say reality is water and there is good > water and there is bad water and all different manner of water in between. So > even though everything is water, there is great meaning between good water > and bad water. > > I think a good analogy is this discussion group. Everyone writes. So the > discussion group is all about writing and we could say since everything about > the discussion group is writing there is no meaning to it. But there's good > writing and bad writing and everything in between. There's great meaning > found here even though it's all writing. > > I think change and time are spokes in the wheel of life. Sometimes the road > is smooth and all goes well and everyone is happy and content and we forget > all about the spokes as we roll along. Other times though, the road's bumpy > and full of ruts, difficult to traverse, and the entire journey is > treacherous and hard. And with each bump in the road we're reminded of the > spokes we're riding upon. > > Looking back (since that is all I can do), the difficult journey has always > been the one that leads to the best, most memorably creative times in my life > (though not the happiest, to be sure), while the easy and safe journey is > soon forgotten (though at the time the journey was happening I must have been > happier than in the hard times, right?). I just don't know. > > What do you think? > > Dan > > > > > > > Marsha > > > > > > > > At 11:24 PM 5/25/2009, you wrote: > > > >>On May 25, 2009, at 11:09:02 AM, "Dan Glover" wrote: > >> > >> > >>Hello everyone > >> > >>---------------------------------------- > >>> Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 08:47:17 -0700 > >>> From: [email protected] > >>> To: [email protected] > >>> Subject: Re: [MD] LC: Expanded Annotation 57 > >>> > >>> On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 12:39 PM, MarshaV wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>>> 57. In the MOQ time is dependent on experience > >>>> independently of matter. Matter is a deduction from > >>>> experience. > >>>> > >>> > >>> So we just toss E=mc2 out the window? > >>> > >>> I think (unless it can be explained better to me) that the realization of > >>> object precedes or arises with the realization of time. Time = change and > >>> you can't have "change" without some"thing" changing. > >> > >>Hi John > >> > >>In the MOQ, matter arises from experience, not the other way around. > >>Time arises from experience as well, so it arises independently of matter. > >> > >>I am unsure what you mean when you say: So we just toss E=mc2 out > >>the window? Equations do not arise from matter. They are ideas. They > >>arise from experience independently of matter. > >> > >>Does this help to better answer your question? > >> > >>Dan > >> > >> > >>Hi all, Willblake2 here, > >> > >>I saw E=mc2, thought I'd jump in to see if physics has any bearing on MoQ. > >> > >>What this equation symbolizes is that energy and matter are > >>identical. We can > >>convert one to the other simply using a constant number, that is the speed > >>of > >>light times itself. A very large number compared to numbers we are > >>used to dealing > >>with, but just a number like "2". To simplify, we could say that > >>one mass is two energies. > >> > >>In the equation is the speed of light, which is distance traveled > >>over time. This is > >>where time comes into the picture. That is time separates > >>distances. Einstein loved > >>this kind of metaphysical stuff. Was a mystic in his own way, non > >>of this spiritual > >>unity stuff, but in trying to sort out the underlying fabric of reality. > >> > >>So what is so special about the speed of light? Well for one a > >>photon (pure energy) > >>zips around at that speed. More importantly, it is thought that the speed is > >>constant. That is if you are traveling at half the speed of light, > >>and shine a flashlight > >>it will appear to leave you at the speed of light, to someone > >>standing by the road, > >>the light from the flashlight will also leave at the speed of light > >>(not 1 + a half speed). > >> > >>Einstein got to thinking about this and said that what is happening is that > >>time is slowing down the faster you go. Therefore since the speed > >>of light should > >>be going at one and a half times, time goes slower to make up for this. > >>That time slows down with speed has been shown in the lab, and in > >>fact satellites > >>and GPS systems take this slowing down into account for accuracy. > >> > >>OK, nothing new there. Now the limits of speed are 0 (zero) and > >>the speed of > >>light (SOL). Nothing goes slower than zero, nothing goes faster than SOL. > >>Now, at the SOL, time does not move, it stays at 0. At our speed time > >>moves along. Lets say, for metaphysical purposes that we switch the limits, > >>and say that the speed of light is zero, and we are moving at close to the > >>speed of light. This is just using a different reference. It > >>makes sense to use > >>the speed of light as zero, since time is stopped at that > >>point. Therefore, light is > >>dead still, and we are rushing through it. Imagine the wind of time blowing > >>through your hair, you can feel it. When you are stopped along with light > >>there is not wind, no time passing by. I would reference this > >>thought experiment > >>but I have not found it on the internet yet. > >> > >>OK, so we are moving very fast and we experience time. However at every > >>instant time does not move. At every instant we are dead still, because > >>an instant is so small that no time has passed. This is the Now. If the > >>perception of Quality into our consciousness happens during this instant > >>we could feel it. We would be going through infinitely short starts > >>and stops. > >>This would be a physics analogy of how Quality comes before time, in fact > >> it is the background upon which time happens. > >> > >>An analogy of all this would be that Quality is the white background > >>on a page > >>in a book, and time is the written words. Although we are jumping > >>through time, > >>Quality is always there in the background. Time is caused by speed which is > >>distance per time. This would mean that for time to appear by > >>itself, distance > >>would have to dissapear. There is no distance between us and Quality. > >>You take out time by stopping and you have just Quality left. > >>We could say that light is pure Quality (no time). And once > >>again we can worship the Sun. > >> > >>Hope this made some sense, thanks for your time. > >> > >>Willblake2 > >> > >>Moq_Discuss mailing list > >>Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >>http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >>Archives: > >>http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >>http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > >>Moq_Discuss mailing list > >>Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >>http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >>Archives: > >>http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >>http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > > . > > _____________ > > > > The self is a thought-flow of ever-changing, interrelated and > > interconnected, inorganic, biological, social and intellectual, > > static patterns of value responding to Dynamic Quality. > > > > . > > . > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail® has a new way to see what's up with your friends. > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/WhatsNew?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_WhatsNew1_052009 > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ . _____________ The self is a thought-flow of ever-changing, interrelated and interconnected, inorganic, biological, social and intellectual, static patterns of value responding to Dynamic Quality. . . 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