I wanted to explore what was meant by the statement, because it is true, I thought the newcomers would benefit by alittle clarification of it.
it was a selfish reason, it had little to do with any expectations. I just liked it and I wanted to expand on it in my own interpretation. -R ________________________________ From: MarshaV <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 3:13:54 PM Subject: Re: [MD] qUALITY At 11:16 AM 5/27/2009, you wrote: > "Quality/DQ is indivisible, undefinable and unknowable." Ron, Are you asking me to for rational answers? You do have your nerve! ooooooooohhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmm Marsha > qUESTIONS: > > Isn't this a definition? > > if Quality is unknowable then Quality does not exist. > > if Quality is unknowable then an MoQ is meaningless > > But > > Pirsig states that everyone knows what Quality is. > > then > > When it is stated that Quality is unknowable, it stands for a CONCEPTUAL > universal meaning. > Everyone knows what Quality is from their own particular experience. > > Quality is "be-ing" thats the universiality of it and where it connects to > empiricism. > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: MarshaV <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 9:58:18 AM > Subject: Re: [MD] LC: Expanded Annotation 57 > > > > Quality/DQ is indivisible, undefinable and unknowable. > > > At 09:17 AM 5/27/2009, you wrote: > > is'nt change DQ? > > > > > > DQ is then conventional > > > > it is only a word for the experience of change. > > > > > > no more words then Marsha. > > > > as you would have it. > > > > love Ron > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: MarshaV <[email protected]> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 9:11:09 AM > > Subject: Re: [MD] LC: Expanded Annotation 57 > > > > > > > > > > At 09:05 AM 5/27/2009, you wrote: > > > > > back to this huh... > > > > > > > > > love you marsha > > > > > > bye > > > > and maybe your projections... > > > > > > love you too ron > > > > auf Wiedersehen > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: MarshaV <[email protected]> > > > To: [email protected] > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 9:03:27 AM > > > Subject: Re: [MD] LC: Expanded Annotation 57 > > > > > > At 08:55 AM 5/27/2009, you wrote: > > > > reasoning by virtue of expereince, not deductive rationalization. > > > > > > Ron, > > > > > > Says you. I'm reading your words just like you are reading mine. > > > Neither of us know anything about the others experience. > > > > > > > > > Marsha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: MarshaV <[email protected]> > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 8:14:15 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [MD] LC: Expanded Annotation 57 > > > > > > > > At 07:04 AM 5/27/2009, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > Ron: > > > > > Water may be ice it may be steam, change is relative yet consistent. > > > > > Thinking > > > > > that if all is change, distinction is impossible leads to thoughts of > > > > > absolute. > > > > > Rationalism will do this. > > > > > > > > Ron, > > > > > > > > Your above statement is a bit of reasoning, is it not? > > > > > > > > > > > > Marsha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________ > > > > > From: Dan Glover <[email protected]> > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 7:19:57 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [MD] LC: Expanded Annotation 57 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello everyone > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------- > > > > > > Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 03:02:41 -0400 > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > From: [email protected] > > > > > > Subject: Re: [MD] LC: Expanded Annotation 57 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greetings Will, > > > > > > > > > > > > Time and change have a relationship, yes? What does it actually mean > > > > > > to state that everything is always in a state of > > > > > > change? Everything! I'm thinking of the water analogy: If > > > > > > everything is water, and there is nothing that is not water, then > > > > > > there is no meaning to water, for there is no way of distinguishing > > > > > > a > > > > > > difference between water and nonwater. Seems if you translate that > > > > > > into change, then what humans have actually defined as change is > > > > > > illusion. And if our definition of change is an illusion, how can > > > > > > anything be conceived of as constant, as in Einstein's 'C', when > > > > > > everything is changing? Against what is it measured? > > > > > > > > > > > > Can you untangle this mess between water, change and time? > > > > > > > > > > Hi Marsha > > > > > > > > > > Please excuse me for butting in. Isn't some water better than other > > > > > water? I read where the space shuttle delivered a urine-reclamation > > > > > unit to the ISS in order to supply fresh water for the anticipated > > > > > doubling of the number of crew members in the near future. > > > > > > > > > > Now I don't know about anyone else, but I'd rather not drink someone > > > > > else's piss water no matter how well it is recycled. Of course if I > > > > > was thirsty enough I might change my tune. But nevertheless, I've > > > > > decided not to visit the ISS anytime in the near future, at least > > > > > until they get running water installed. > > > > > > > > > > Hmmm, where was I now... I've seemed to have wandered from my > > > > > original point... > > > > > > > > > > Oh yes, some water is better... Let's say reality is water and there > > > > > is good water and there is bad water and all different manner of > > > > > water in between. So even though everything is water, there is great > > > > > meaning between good water and bad water. > > > > > > > > > > I think a good analogy is this discussion group. Everyone writes. So > > > > > the discussion group is all about writing and we could say since > > > > > everything about the discussion group is writing there is no meaning > > > > > to it. But there's good writing and bad writing and everything in > > > > > between. There's great meaning found here even though it's all > > > > > writing. > > > > > > > > > > I think change and time are spokes in the wheel of life. Sometimes > > > > > the road is smooth and all goes well and everyone is happy and > > > > > content and we forget all about the spokes as we roll along. Other > > > > > times though, the road's bumpy and full of ruts, difficult to > > > > > traverse, and the entire journey is treacherous and hard. And with > > > > > each bump in the road we're reminded of the spokes we're riding upon. > > > > > > > > > > Looking back (since that is all I can do), the difficult journey has > > > > > always been the one that leads to the best, most memorably creative > > > > > times in my life (though not the happiest, to be sure), while the > > > > > easy and safe journey is soon forgotten (though at the time the > > > > > journey was happening I must have been happier than in the hard > > > > > times, right?). I just don't know. > > > > > > > > > > What do you think? > > > > > > > > > > Dan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marsha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 11:24 PM 5/25/2009, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >>On May 25, 2009, at 11:09:02 AM, "Dan Glover" wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>Hello everyone > > > > > >> > > > > > >>---------------------------------------- > > > > > >>> Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 08:47:17 -0700 > > > > > >>> From: [email protected] > > > > > >>> To: [email protected] > > > > > >>> Subject: Re: [MD] LC: Expanded Annotation 57 > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 12:39 PM, MarshaV wrote: > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>>> 57. In the MOQ time is dependent on experience > > > > > >>>> independently of matter. Matter is a deduction from > > > > > >>>> experience. > > > > > >>>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> So we just toss E=mc2 out the window? > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> I think (unless it can be explained better to me) that the > > > > > >>> realization of > > > > > >>> object precedes or arises with the realization of time. Time = > > > > > >>> change and > > > > > >>> you can't have "change" without some"thing" changing. > > > > > >> > > > > > >>Hi John > > > > > >> > > > > > >>In the MOQ, matter arises from experience, not the other way around. > > > > > >>Time arises from experience as well, so it arises independently of > > > > > >>matter. > > > > > >> > > > > > >>I am unsure what you mean when you say: So we just toss E=mc2 out > > > > > >>the window? Equations do not arise from matter. They are ideas. They > > > > > >>arise from experience independently of matter. > > > > > >> > > > > > >>Does this help to better answer your question? > > > > > >> > > > > > >>Dan > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >>Hi all, Willblake2 here, > > > > > >> > > > > > >>I saw E=mc2, thought I'd jump in to see if physics has any bearing > > > > > >>on MoQ. > > > > > >> > > > > > >>What this equation symbolizes is that energy and matter are > > > > > >>identical. We can > > > > > >>convert one to the other simply using a constant number, that is > > > > > >>the speed of > > > > > >>light times itself. A very large number compared to numbers we are > > > > > >>used to dealing > > > > > >>with, but just a number like "2". To simplify, we could say that > > > > > >>one mass is two energies. > > > > > >> > > > > > >>In the equation is the speed of light, which is distance traveled > > > > > >>over time. This is > > > > > >>where time comes into the picture. That is time separates > > > > > >>distances. Einstein loved > > > > > >>this kind of metaphysical stuff. Was a mystic in his own way, non > > > > > >>of this spiritual > > > > > >>unity stuff, but in trying to sort out the underlying fabric of > > > > > >>reality. > > > > > >> > > > > > >>So what is so special about the speed of light? Well for one a > > > > > >>photon (pure energy) > > > > > >>zips around at that speed. More importantly, it is thought that the > > > > > >>speed is > > > > > >>constant. That is if you are traveling at half the speed of light, > > > > > >>and shine a flashlight > > > > > >>it will appear to leave you at the speed of light, to someone > > > > > >>standing by the road, > > > > > >>the light from the flashlight will also leave at the speed of light > > > > > >>(not 1 + a half speed). > > > > > >> > > > > > >>Einstein got to thinking about this and said that what is happening > > > > > >>is that > > > > > >>time is slowing down the faster you go. Therefore since the speed > > > > > >>of light should > > > > > >>be going at one and a half times, time goes slower to make up for > > > > > >>this. > > > > > >>That time slows down with speed has been shown in the lab, and in > > > > > >>fact satellites > > > > > >>and GPS systems take this slowing down into account for accuracy. > > > > > >> > > > > > >>OK, nothing new there. Now the limits of speed are 0 (zero) and > > > > > >>the speed of > > > > > >>light (SOL). Nothing goes slower than zero, nothing goes faster > > > > > >>than SOL. > > > > > >>Now, at the SOL, time does not move, it stays at 0. At our speed > > > > > >>time > > > > > >>moves along. Lets say, for metaphysical purposes that we switch the > > > > > >>limits, > > > > > >>and say that the speed of light is zero, and we are moving at close > > > > > >>to the > > > > > >>speed of light. This is just using a different reference. It > > > > > >>makes sense to use > > > > > >>the speed of light as zero, since time is stopped at that > > > > > >>point. Therefore, light is > > > > > >>dead still, and we are rushing through it. Imagine the wind of time > > > > > >>blowing > > > > > >>through your hair, you can feel it. When you are stopped along with > > > > > >>light > > > > > >>there is not wind, no time passing by. I would reference this > > > > > >>thought experiment > > > > > >>but I have not found it on the internet yet. > > > > > >> > > > > > >>OK, so we are moving very fast and we experience time. However at > > > > > >>every > > > > > >>instant time does not move. At every instant we are dead still, > > > > > >>because > > > > > >>an instant is so small that no time has passed. This is the Now. If > > > > > >>the > > > > > >>perception of Quality into our consciousness happens during this > > > > > >>instant > > > > > >>we could feel it. We would be going through infinitely short starts > > > > > >>and stops. > > > > > >>This would be a physics analogy of how Quality comes before time, > > > > > >>in fact > > > > > >> it is the background upon which time happens. > > > > > >> > > > > > >>An analogy of all this would be that Quality is the white background > > > > > >>on a page > > > > > >>in a book, and time is the written words. Although we are jumping > > > > > >>through time, > > > > > >>Quality is always there in the background. Time is caused by speed > > > > > >>which is > > > > > >>distance per time. This would mean that for time to appear by > > > > > >>itself, distance > > > > > >>would have to dissapear. There is no distance between us and > > > > > >>Quality. > > > > > >>You take out time by stopping and you have just Quality left. > > > > > >>We could say that light is pure Quality (no time). And once > > > > > >>again we can worship the Sun. > > > > > >> > > > > > >>Hope this made some sense, thanks for your time. > > > > > >> > > > > > >>Willblake2 > > > > > >> > > > > > >>Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > > > >>Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > > > >>http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > > > >>Archives: > > > > > >>http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > > > >>http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > >>Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > > > >>Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > > > >>http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > > > >>Archives: > > > > > >>http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > > > >>http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > _____________ > > > > > > > > > > > > The self is a thought-flow of ever-changing, interrelated and > > > > > > interconnected, inorganic, biological, social and intellectual, > > > > > > static patterns of value responding to Dynamic Quality. > > > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > > > > Archives: > > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > > > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > Hotmail® has a new way to see what's up with your friends. > > > > > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/WhatsNew?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_WhatsNew1_052009 > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > > > Archives: > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > > > Archives: > > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > _____________ > > > > > > > > The self is a thought-flow of ever-changing, interrelated and > > > > interconnected, inorganic, biological, social and intellectual, static > > > > patterns of value responding to Dynamic Quality. > > > > > > > > . > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > > Archives: > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > > Archives: > > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > > > > > . > > > _____________ > > > > > > The self is a thought-flow of ever-changing, interrelated and > > > interconnected, inorganic, biological, social and intellectual, static > > > patterns of value responding to Dynamic Quality. > > > > > > . > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > Archives: > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > Archives: > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > > . > > _____________ > > > > The self is a thought-flow of ever-changing, interrelated and > > interconnected, inorganic, biological, social and intellectual, static > > patterns of value responding to Dynamic Quality. > > > > . > > . > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > . > _____________ > > The self is a thought-flow of ever-changing, interrelated and interconnected, > inorganic, biological, social and intellectual, static patterns of value > responding to Dynamic Quality. > > . > . > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ . _____________ The self is a thought-flow of ever-changing, interrelated and interconnected, inorganic, biological, social and intellectual, static patterns of value responding to Dynamic Quality. . . Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
