qUESTIONS:
Isn't this a definition?
if Quality is unknowable then Quality does not exist.
if Quality is unknowable then an MoQ is meaningless
But
Pirsig states that everyone knows what Quality is.
then
When it is stated that Quality is unknowable, it
stands for a CONCEPTUAL universal meaning.
Everyone knows what Quality is from their own particular experience.
Quality is "be-ing" thats the universiality of
it and where it connects to empiricism.
________________________________
From: MarshaV <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 9:58:18 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] LC: Expanded Annotation 57
Quality/DQ is indivisible, undefinable and unknowable.
At 09:17 AM 5/27/2009, you wrote:
> is'nt change DQ?
>
>
> DQ is then conventional
>
> it is only a word for the experience of change.
>
>
> no more words then Marsha.
>
> as you would have it.
>
> love Ron
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: MarshaV <[email protected]>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 9:11:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] LC: Expanded Annotation 57
>
>
>
>
> At 09:05 AM 5/27/2009, you wrote:
>
> > back to this huh...
> >
> >
> > love you marsha
> >
> > bye
>
> and maybe your projections...
>
>
> love you too ron
>
> auf Wiedersehen
>
>
>
> > ________________________________
> > From: MarshaV <[email protected]>
> > To: [email protected]
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 9:03:27 AM
> > Subject: Re: [MD] LC: Expanded Annotation 57
> >
> > At 08:55 AM 5/27/2009, you wrote:
> > > reasoning by virtue of expereince, not deductive rationalization.
> >
> > Ron,
> >
> > Says you. I'm reading your words just like
you are reading mine. Neither of us know anything about the others experience.
> >
> >
> > Marsha
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: MarshaV <[email protected]>
> > > To: [email protected]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 8:14:15 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [MD] LC: Expanded Annotation 57
> > >
> > > At 07:04 AM 5/27/2009, you wrote:
> > >
> > > > Ron:
> > > > Water may be ice it may be steam,
change is relative yet consistent. Thinking
> > > > that if all is change, distinction is
impossible leads to thoughts of absolute.
> > > > Rationalism will do this.
> > >
> > > Ron,
> > >
> > > Your above statement is a bit of reasoning, is it not?
> > >
> > >
> > > Marsha
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > ________________________
> > > > From: Dan Glover <[email protected]>
> > > > To: [email protected]
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 7:19:57 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [MD] LC: Expanded Annotation 57
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hello everyone
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------------------------
> > > > > Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 03:02:41 -0400
> > > > > To: [email protected]
> > > > > From: [email protected]
> > > > > Subject: Re: [MD] LC: Expanded Annotation 57
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Greetings Will,
> > > > >
> > > > > Time and change have a relationship,
yes? What does it actually mean
> > > > > to state that everything is always in a state of
> > > > > change? Everything! I'm thinking of the water analogy: If
> > > > > everything is water, and there is nothing that is not water, then
> > > > > there is no meaning to water, for
there is no way of distinguishing a
> > > > > difference between water and nonwater. Seems if you translate that
> > > > > into change, then what humans have actually defined as change is
> > > > > illusion. And if our definition of change is an illusion, how can
> > > > > anything be conceived of as constant, as in Einstein's 'C', when
> > > > > everything is changing? Against what is it measured?
> > > > >
> > > > > Can you untangle this mess between water, change and time?
> > > >
> > > > Hi Marsha
> > > >
> > > > Please excuse me for butting in. Isn't
some water better than other water? I read
where the space shuttle delivered a
urine-reclamation unit to the ISS in order to
supply fresh water for the anticipated doubling
of the number of crew members in the near future.
> > > >
> > > > Now I don't know about anyone else, but
I'd rather not drink someone else's piss water
no matter how well it is recycled. Of course if
I was thirsty enough I might change my tune.
But nevertheless, I've decided not to visit the
ISS anytime in the near future, at least until
they get running water installed.
> > > >
> > > > Hmmm, where was I now... I've seemed to
have wandered from my original point...
> > > >
> > > > Oh yes, some water is better... Let's
say reality is water and there is good water
and there is bad water and all different manner
of water in between. So even though everything
is water, there is great meaning between good water and bad water.
> > > >
> > > > I think a good analogy is this
discussion group. Everyone writes. So the
discussion group is all about writing and we
could say since everything about the discussion
group is writing there is no meaning to it. But
there's good writing and bad writing and
everything in between. There's great meaning
found here even though it's all writing.
> > > >
> > > > I think change and time are spokes in
the wheel of life. Sometimes the road is smooth
and all goes well and everyone is happy and
content and we forget all about the spokes as
we roll along. Other times though, the road's
bumpy and full of ruts, difficult to traverse,
and the entire journey is treacherous and hard.
And with each bump in the road we're reminded of the spokes we're riding upon.
> > > >
> > > > Looking back (since that is all I can
do), the difficult journey has always been the
one that leads to the best, most memorably
creative times in my life (though not the
happiest, to be sure), while the easy and safe
journey is soon forgotten (though at the time
the journey was happening I must have been
happier than in the hard times, right?). I just don't know.
> > > >
> > > > What do you think?
> > > >
> > > > Dan
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Marsha
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > At 11:24 PM 5/25/2009, you wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >>On May 25, 2009, at 11:09:02 AM, "Dan Glover" wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Hello everyone
> > > > >>
> > > > >>----------------------------------------
> > > > >>> Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 08:47:17 -0700
> > > > >>> From: [email protected]
> > > > >>> To: [email protected]
> > > > >>> Subject: Re: [MD] LC: Expanded Annotation 57
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 12:39 PM, MarshaV wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> 57. In the MOQ time is dependent on experience
> > > > >>>> independently of matter. Matter is a deduction from
> > > > >>>> experience.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> So we just toss E=mc2 out the window?
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> I think (unless it can be explained
better to me) that the realization of
> > > > >>> object precedes or arises with the
realization of time. Time = change and
> > > > >>> you can't have "change" without some"thing" changing.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Hi John
> > > > >>
> > > > >>In the MOQ, matter arises from
experience, not the other way around.
> > > > >>Time arises from experience as well,
so it arises independently of matter.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>I am unsure what you mean when you say: So we just toss E=mc2 out
> > > > >>the window? Equations do not arise
from matter. They are ideas. They
> > > > >>arise from experience independently of matter.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Does this help to better answer your question?
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Dan
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Hi all, Willblake2 here,
> > > > >>
> > > > >>I saw E=mc2, thought I'd jump in to
see if physics has any bearing on MoQ.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>What this equation symbolizes is that energy and matter are
> > > > >>identical. We can
> > > > >>convert one to the other simply using
a constant number, that is the speed of
> > > > >>light times itself. A very large number compared to numbers we are
> > > > >>used to dealing
> > > > >>with, but just a number like "2". To simplify, we could say that
> > > > >>one mass is two energies.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>In the equation is the speed of light, which is distance traveled
> > > > >>over time. This is
> > > > >>where time comes into the picture. That is time separates
> > > > >>distances. Einstein loved
> > > > >>this kind of metaphysical stuff. Was a mystic in his own way, non
> > > > >>of this spiritual
> > > > >>unity stuff, but in trying to sort
out the underlying fabric of reality.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>So what is so special about the speed of light? Well for one a
> > > > >>photon (pure energy)
> > > > >>zips around at that speed. More
importantly, it is thought that the speed is
> > > > >>constant. That is if you are traveling at half the speed of light,
> > > > >>and shine a flashlight
> > > > >>it will appear to leave you at the speed of light, to someone
> > > > >>standing by the road,
> > > > >>the light from the flashlight will also leave at the speed of light
> > > > >>(not 1 + a half speed).
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Einstein got to thinking about this
and said that what is happening is that
> > > > >>time is slowing down the faster you go. Therefore since the speed
> > > > >>of light should
> > > > >>be going at one and a half times,
time goes slower to make up for this.
> > > > >>That time slows down with speed has been shown in the lab, and in
> > > > >>fact satellites
> > > > >>and GPS systems take this slowing down into account for accuracy.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>OK, nothing new there. Now the limits of speed are 0 (zero) and
> > > > >>the speed of
> > > > >>light (SOL). Nothing goes slower than
zero, nothing goes faster than SOL.
> > > > >>Now, at the SOL, time does not move,
it stays at 0. At our speed time
> > > > >>moves along. Lets say, for
metaphysical purposes that we switch the limits,
> > > > >>and say that the speed of light is
zero, and we are moving at close to the
> > > > >>speed of light. This is just using a different reference. It
> > > > >>makes sense to use
> > > > >>the speed of light as zero, since time is stopped at that
> > > > >>point. Therefore, light is
> > > > >>dead still, and we are rushing
through it. Imagine the wind of time blowing
> > > > >>through your hair, you can feel it.
When you are stopped along with light
> > > > >>there is not wind, no time passing by. I would reference this
> > > > >>thought experiment
> > > > >>but I have not found it on the internet yet.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>OK, so we are moving very fast and we
experience time. However at every
> > > > >>instant time does not move. At every
instant we are dead still, because
> > > > >>an instant is so small that no time
has passed. This is the Now. If the
> > > > >>perception of Quality into our
consciousness happens during this instant
> > > > >>we could feel it. We would be going through infinitely short starts
> > > > >>and stops.
> > > > >>This would be a physics analogy of
how Quality comes before time, in fact
> > > > >> it is the background upon which time happens.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>An analogy of all this would be that
Quality is the white background
> > > > >>on a page
> > > > >>in a book, and time is the written words. Although we are jumping
> > > > >>through time,
> > > > >>Quality is always there in the
background. Time is caused by speed which is
> > > > >>distance per time. This would mean that for time to appear by
> > > > >>itself, distance
> > > > >>would have to dissapear. There is no
distance between us and Quality.
> > > > >>You take out time by stopping and you have just Quality left.
> > > > >>We could say that light is pure Quality (no time). And once
> > > > >>again we can worship the Sun.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Hope this made some sense, thanks for your time.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Willblake2
> > > > >>
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > .
> > > > > _____________
> > > > >
> > > > > The self is a thought-flow of ever-changing, interrelated and
> > > > > interconnected, inorganic, biological, social and intellectual,
> > > > > static patterns of value responding to Dynamic Quality.
> > > > >
> > > > > .
> > > > > .
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
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> > > >
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> > >
> > >
> > > .
> > > _____________
> > >
> > > The self is a thought-flow of
ever-changing, interrelated and interconnected,
inorganic, biological, social and intellectual,
static patterns of value responding to Dynamic Quality.
> > >
> > > .
> > > .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
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> >
> >
> > .
> > _____________
> >
> > The self is a thought-flow of
ever-changing, interrelated and interconnected,
inorganic, biological, social and intellectual,
static patterns of value responding to Dynamic Quality.
> >
> > .
> > .
> >
> >
> >
> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
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>
>
> .
> _____________
>
> The self is a thought-flow of ever-changing,
interrelated and interconnected, inorganic,
biological, social and intellectual, static
patterns of value responding to Dynamic Quality.
>
> .
> .
>
>
>
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
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>
>
>
>
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
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.
_____________
The self is a thought-flow of ever-changing,
interrelated and interconnected, inorganic,
biological, social and intellectual, static
patterns of value responding to Dynamic Quality.
.
.
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