hey dave,
> > > dmb says:I don't think meaninglessness and re-incarnation > are the only choices. But you're probably right about the > ignorance. I just don't know of any reason to believe it. > Those near-death stories are interesting. People really do > have such experiences, but I'm not so sure about the claims > that follow. You know, psychological facts and ontological > claims are very different things. Especially if you're > limited to only what can be known in experience, as radical > empiricism demands. > if what the yogis have been saying in india for centuries is true, then we have access to much more of consciousness than we presently utilise. according to these 'scientists of consciousness' (paramahansa yogananda - autobiography of a yogi), we do not have to die to enlarge the scope of our awareness about death and beyond. and when we do die we are able, if sufficiently conscious at the time of death, to return to the physical plane, just as jesus is supposed to have done. i know this sets off alarm bells in our skeptical western ears, but our western ears are a product of our western mind which has been conditioned from birth to disbelieve pretty much everything save that which is material. i just can't dismiss this evidence from the east; i don't believe yogananda is lying, i don't believe ram dass is lying about his experiences with his guru...it is all too consistent, and resonant. in any case the only clear point i am trying to make here is that the western ignorance and fear of death are linked. and that this presumption of one mortal life then ? (probably nada), is more amenable to nihilism than altruism. you know there is a really good guy on telly at the mo - louis theroux, paul theroux's son i think. he does these great gentle investigations into strange groups - south african white supremacists (still there), nazis in the USA, extreme gay and america hating christians (yep US again), thai bride shops for westerners... he did one on westerners seeking enlightenment in india. it was excellent; he was resolutely skeptical but open, not closed. he interviewed an osho devotee who was previously a professor of psychology in the states - he was cool; he interviewed a hare krishna guru who was also, decades earlier , an american; this guy i found okay but not as much too my liking. he also interviewed a guru himself, one famous for materialising objects. louis was taken to him by a physicist from california who was returning to the states the next day...he was a little strange...the physicist: some shit getting worked out there. the guru was amicable but there was no ground broken. louis had given it a good go, no doubt; he had tried the chanting, exercises, meditation; he had talked to many 'spiritual' sorts...and still he wasn't really any different, he hadn't experienced anything to make him believe that there was anything going on other than westerners seeking solace in the bosom of another culture.... and then, just before he leaves, he attends one of the huggamama's hugathons. he looks nervous as he gets closer and closer in line to the mama and then when he reaches her he bends a little, for louis is a tall man, and the huggamama embraces him warmly, then extends the embrace just as it looks like the end, and then a little kiss on his cheek, and louis gets up and wanders away to the recovery area to be interviewed - and he is shaken! he is nearly in tears and he tells the camera that something happened, something he wasn't prepared for, he says that that was a really really nice hug, he is different, admittedly different. something ineffable has passed between the mama and louis (unconditional love; a special encouragement?) and louis is ruffled, humbled....he talks to a guy, from the states again, who he had interviewed earlier, a little rudely, and this guy is grinning from ear to ear. he looks at louis and says " you know you can write a phd thesis on chocolate but until you taste it you never know". cheers gav ps by the way bel went to see the same lady here in brisbane a few years back. when i asked her how it was she was pretty blase about it all (highly skeptical beforehand - bel was going with a friend who was a devotee). i said "well what happened after she hugged you?", and bel sorta opened her mouth, then her eyes sorta looked upwards and askance and she closed her mouth and then she thought a while and then said "i don't know". i don't really remember anything until we were in the car about 45 minutes later. > _________________________________________________________________ > Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd1_052009 > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Need a Holiday? Win a $10,000 Holiday of your choice. Enter now.http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylc=X3oDMTJxN2x2ZmNpBF9zAzIwMjM2MTY2MTMEdG1fZG1lY2gDVGV4dCBMaW5rBHRtX2xuawNVMTEwMzk3NwR0bV9uZXQDWWFob28hBHRtX3BvcwN0YWdsaW5lBHRtX3BwdHkDYXVueg--/SIG=14600t3ni/**http%3A//au.rd.yahoo.com/mail/tagline/creativeholidays/*http%3A//au.docs.yahoo.com/homepageset/%3Fp1=other%26p2=au%26p3=mailtagline Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
