Ham: Freedom, Liberty, and Justice are values. Do you believe values are "intellectual patterns" that we can't sense or feel without intellect? Is the joy you experience from a walk in the woods something you have to conceptualize about? Are peace and beauty not directly sensed as an immanent part of your awareness?
Ron: May you touch freedom? may you see liberty? may you taste justice? Do animals sense peace and beauty? Ham: Last week I ran an essay by an anonymous author on my Values Page which relates to subjective value. Here's an excerpt that makes my point: Ron: He starts from the assumption that reality is divided into subjects and objects, this is an intellectual assumption and proves nothing. ________________________________ From: Hampday1 <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2009 6:02:49 PM Subject: Re: [MD] epistemological first musings and poetry's recognition Welcome back Nick [Marsha quoted] -- The reincarnation of 'Adirondak Spirit' as 'Blue-jay Maple' has generated more posts than I can track. Whatever it was that charged you up during the past six months has returned you to us with a vengeance. Your motives are right, and this Non-Aggressive Principle of yours would have some merit if everyone lived by it. Alas, the world is populated by a host of neo-Neanderthals who don't give a hoot for morality or human life, and would just as soon murder you and your family if it served their purpose. Besides, while the NAP issue may be relevant to morality, it has side-tracked the philosophy discussion. For example, I'm surprised you let Marsha get away with this statement: [Marsha]: > "Liberty" and "justice" are intellectual patterns, conceptual > constructs, that last within the mind for a few nanosecond, yet > they can mistakenly be objectified as having an independent > existence. You were so obsessed with the NAP doctrine that you responded "Ok. But this doesn't mean I need to go out and initiate physical coercion upon other people does it Marsha?" Freedom, Liberty, and Justice are values. Do you believe values are "intellectual patterns" that we can't sense or feel without intellect? Is the joy you experience from a walk in the woods something you have to conceptualize about? Are peace and beauty not directly sensed as an immanent part of your awareness? Last week I ran an essay by an anonymous author on my Values Page which relates to subjective value. Here's an excerpt that makes my point: "Something cannot be valued without a consciousness. It makes no sense to say that anything is valued objectively because if there is no subject, there can be no preference for anything. The act of charity cannot be found to be good without a mind any more than the smell of a flower can be found to be pleasant without a nose. Unfortunately, most people are reared to believe the opposite. They are taught that value is defined by some impersonal standard that one is supposed to have or find. Such a standard cannot exist. Value is a property that exists within minds. Something can be valued by some people in the world, nobody in the world, or even everyone in the world, but there cannot be a value that is "objective," "necessary," or "a priori." In other words, there cannot be anything that is desirable to, and independent of, every possible point of view." -- [The Philosophy of Individual Valuism, www.indval.org .] Unfortunately, by insisting that Quality and Value are "intellectual patterns", the Pirsigians render it impersonal, objective, and universal in nature. In other words, they deny that value is realizable only by a sensible agent without whom neither value nor quality would exist. Are you comfortable with that concept, Nick? Anyway, nice to see you back. Essentially yours, Ham Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
