On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Ham Priday <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > No, values do not exist "outside" of a mind. Ok, fair enough. I will not spout pre-formed ideas of my own or anybody else's on this but simply ask you, what is your proof? How can you demonstrate this truth of yours, in some fashion (my own senses, logic, reasonable definitions of discourse) that no values exist outside of a mind? I honestly try and figure it out, and I can't. I seem to run into some sort of intellectual limitation when I try to think of outside of mind. So I mostly don't. I do try and think outside of my mind. *A* mind might very well be the source of all value, quality, good and reality. But *my* mind is not. My mind is just my own little thing over here in the corner. I guess the whole problem I have with subject-based values is trying to picture *this* self-centered subject as any kind of viable entity. > If something is of value, it is desired or preferred by a subject, the > agent of value. If the value is negative or undesirable, it is the subject > who avoids it. Can you name something whose value is unrealized by a > subject? How do you define subject? I mean, that is in essence my main arguement through and through, you cannot metaphysically define an isolated subject. Subject arises in a continuous dance with object, seer and seen, always together. You can't pick either side as The One in this dance. I thought that was my problem with individual valuism Ham, I don't believe in the isolated individual. > How can you logically assert something doesn't exist BECAUSE you >> don't see it. It seems to me the best you could do is assert that there >> is >> no way to verify non-self-aware reality. To actually go all the way and >> say the world disappears when you close your eyes is something most >> humans outgrew in toddlerhood. >> > > If I don't know it, it doesn't exist for me. If no one knows it, it > doesn't exist -- period. Pirsig was right on this one. He said, if a thing > is not valued it doesn't exist. Are you contradicting Pirsig? > Cute, but ha-ha. Thy syllogism lacks oomph. We are discussing wherein values arise, not how important they are. > >> [Ham] > Call them "intellectual tools", if you want, John. But S/O is the way we > sense the world. Call it a telescope, Ham, but its how I look at the stars. What do you think I mean by "tool" anyway? [Ham] This dualism doesn't require "intellect" because it is the very nature of > physical existence. To pretend that subjects and objects don't exist for > the sake of a philosopher/poet is sheer foolishness. John] Well your certainty would be reassuring if you could actually show me some logical support for your position. You must have read ZAMM, Ham. How do you discount that author's dismissal of your subjective position? And how do make such self-confident assertions about the very nature of physical existence outside of any intellect? That sounds to me like a very difficult hill to climb but you give me no reasonable grounds for your statement. You just throw it out there as if it's self evident. > My point, however, is that Essentialism is a valuistic philosophy, whereas > the MoQ is neither valuistic nor "qualitative" because of its collectivist > epistemology which rejects the subject. Value exists as a "realization" -- > specifically, the realization that there is something greater than one's > self-awareness. And that realization requires a sensible agent as its > subject. > > Thanks for allowing me to express this viewpoint, John. > > --Ham Well I appreciate your thought and time, Ham. "And that realization requires a sensible agent" makes sense to me... there is a continuum in what you assert. Perhaps I have misjudged your position. I hope you will have time to respond to some of my questions here. John > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > -- ------------ Self is simply Choice. ------------ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
