Ham]
> > This is what I like about the Philosophy of Individual Valuism, as opposed > to universal or collectivist Qualityism. The anonymous author is clear on > this point: > > "Value is a property that exists within minds. Something can be valued > by some people in the world, nobody in the world, or even everyone > in the world, but there cannot be a value that is 'objective,' 'necessary,' > or 'a priori'." > The way it seems to me is that judgement is a property of mind that is about values that exist "outside" of a mind. If the values themselves were intrinsic to mind, there would be nothing to think "about". Even in a solidly S/O oriented mindset that seems obvious. [Ham] Okay, so Pirsig and I are at odds on this issue. I'm not any happier about > this disagreement than you are, but "unrealized value" is an oxymoron. > Without a subjective agent to realize value it doesn't exist. [John] How can you logically assert something doesn't exist BECAUSE you don't see it. It seems to me the best you could do is assert that there is no way to verify non-self-aware reality. To actually go all the way and say the world disappears when you close your eyes is something most humans outgrew in toddlerhood. I take that back. I think even toddlers know better. [Ham] I don't see valuation as an "intellectual pattern" but as the human ability > to realize value "pre-intellectually" (to use Pirsig's term). And where > there is individual subjectivity there must also be objective experience. > It's the self/other dichotomy that characterizes existence. [John] I agree with your last sentence completely. Subject and Object are inseperable from each other and pretty much the way we talk and think. Great intellectual tools that we'd be foolish to cast aside. [Ham] > Fortunately, it appears that I am free to present this anti-MoQ view on > this forum, at least so long as I do not associate it with "right-wing" > individualism. > [John] The question of Quality - what is good and what is not good - pertains particularly pointedly to discourse. I have no patience for low-quality dialogue. It doesn't have to be great, but it has to rise above a certain idiotic level. From what I've seen, you have nothing to fear Ham. ------------ Self is simply Choice. ------------ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
