What do you say we change the thread to free speech
________________________________
From: MarshaV <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 1:34:48 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider
Hi,
No response required, but isn't this what happened to Nick? That's
how I see it.
Marsha
At 01:27 PM 6/11/2009, you wrote:
>M K:
>Ron obviously speech can be hate speech and hate speech can be
>terrorism if we allow those people who have the most to gain from
>such definitions to be the definers. This seems to be the case.
>
>The question then becomes: Who are they and what to they have to gain?
>
>Really think about this.
>
>Ron:
>You mean like if the Gov. defined you as a combatant if you
>threatened them in
>some fashion, yea, you'd be screwed with habious corpus abolished, defined
>as a terrorist you'd go to gitmo and be waterboarded.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: M K <[email protected]>
>To: [email protected]
>Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:31:12 PM
>Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider
>
>Ron obviously speech can be hate speech and hate speech can be
>terrorism if we allow those people who have the most to gain from
>such definitions to be the definers. This seems to be the case.
>
>The question then becomes: Who are they and what to they have to gain?
>
>Really think about this.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: X Acto <[email protected]>
>To: [email protected]
>Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:03:38 AM
>Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider
>
>Which then we have the definition for terrorism
>
>Terrorism
>The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person
>or an organized group against people or property with the intention
>of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for
>ideological or political reasons.
>http://www.answers.com/topic/terrorism
>
>or
>
>Terrorism is a policy or ideology of violence[1] intended to
>intimidate or cause terror[2] for the purpose of "exerting pressure
>on decision making by state bodies."[
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism
>
>
>Making it an interesting topic of conversation, is hate speech terrorism?
>If not why not?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: X Acto <[email protected]>
>To: [email protected]
>Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 11:55:11 AM
>Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider
>
>OK laughing boy
>
>here is a definition for you.
>
>
>Hate speech - Definition
>
>
>Hate speech is a controversial term for speech intended to degrade,
>intimidate, or incite violence or prejudicial action against someone
>based on their race, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sexual
>orientation, or disability. The term covers written as well as oral
>communication.
>Found at:
>http://us.mg4.mail.yahoo.com/dc/launch?.gx=0&.rand=56q7ubtfov871
>
>I never said it was not a controversial issue, and it certainly
>isn't cut and dried.
>I was asked for my opion and I gave it.
>I apologize for taking your smugness for sarcasm.
>
>hugs-n-kisses
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: M K <[email protected]>
>To: [email protected]
>Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 11:49:00 AM
>Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider
>
>Ron I am not advocating here. I am ASKING for a coherent argument. I
>want to understand.
>
>I am rarely sarcastic. Sarcasm implies bitterness. Bitterness
implies defeat.
>
>Please read what I write and then answer.
>
>Have a good one. ( whatever that means )
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: X Acto <[email protected]>
>To: [email protected]
>Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:40:48 AM
>Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider
>
>M K
>Do you have an coherent argument? I have yet to see one from you
>short of the love of sarcasm.
>
>-Ron
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: M K <[email protected]>
>To: [email protected]
>Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 11:34:44 AM
>Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider
>
>Ron you obviously don't know what you are talking about. You seem to
>think you know what the definition of "hate speech" is, but you are
>simply plugging in your own emotional needs.
>
>It doesn't seem to bother you that those individuals and groups who
>are in a position to define this term legally and enforce it through
>the government do so to satisfy political and social agendas, and
>without regard for individual freedoms.
>
>I have yet to hear a coherent argument in favor of such laws. Just
>drivel. But I wait patiently...
>
>It's funny to me that otherwise intelligent people can turn their
>brains off to an important issue if it is considered socially
>distasteful. Social trumping Intellect. Or Biology trumping Social
>trumping Intellect. The mechanism for Pirsig's hierarchy is right here.
>
>Have a nice day Ron and thanks for your ideas.
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: X Acto <[email protected]>
>To: [email protected]
>Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 6:54:49 AM
>Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider
>
>Platt,
>PC, as far as I know, is a social standard for politeness in public
>nothing more.
>Hate speech in public places is alive and well, . As far as I
>know Platt all you need is a permit provided one is granted, otherwise
>you'll probably get fined for loitering and disturbing the peace
if you don't
>move along and take it someplace else if asked.
>
>Same goes for School or work, if it bothers others and creates a disturbance
>and if you refuse to stop, then yes you should be asked to leave.
>
>Hate speech is a term for speech intended to offendor intimidate a
>person or group of people
>by threatening physical harm (towards people or their property) or
>inciting others to threaten such harm.
>
>It boils down to intent Platt. If you intend to intimidate or
>threaten a person or group
>or incite others to do so, you should be fined and jailed.
>
>sorry to ruin your day but a lynch mob is not an extention of free speech.
>
>
>Terrorists use hate speech don't they? to terrorize others?
>Is it your opinion that this is their right to free speech?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
>To: [email protected]
>Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:05:47 AM
>Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider
>
>On 10 Jun 2009 at 19:23, X Acto wrote:
>
> > Platt,
> > Jailed, you silly man. when did jail come into it?
>
>How do you think laws are enforced?
>
> > what liberals call political correctness
> > is what your generation called having some manners in public. did
> you talk like a sailor on leave in front of your girl or her
> freinds? heck no! you would'nt get laid......
>
>Your right except liberals coerce compliance with what they consider
>politically correct by legislating speech codes in schools and workplaces.
>There's a big difference between losing out with a date and losing a job.
>PC is a back door attack on free speech. Hate speech laws are an overt
>attack on free speech.
>
> > terrorists is a broad general term, covers alot. Terrorism is a
> better way to hate,
> > thats an idea worthy of some fuckin hate, and I'm all with you.
> Individual people?
> > dunno Platt. but the idea of terrorism I'm all friggin with ya freind.
>
>A terrorist is someone who engages in terrorism, disguising himself as a
>civilian, strapping on a bomb and blowing himself up in a crowded
>market, deliberately killing dozens if not hundreds of noncombatants. In
>the case of 9/11, terrorists hijacked airplanes and killed over 3,000. So
>yes, I hate terrorists.
>
>But, what is your answer to my question? :Does someone violate a hate
>speech law if he expresses hatred of terrorists in public like I just did?
>
>
>
> > ________________________________
> > From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> > To: [email protected]
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 5:29:35 PM
> > Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider
> >
> > On 10 Jun 2009 at 9:47, X Acto wrote:
> >
> > > Ron:
> > > How exactly is the Gov. going to police your thoughts?
> >
> > By enforcing hate speech laws with fines and/or jail terms.
> >
> > > I think thoughts about hating individuals or groups of
> individuals is an individual
> > > right, expressing those thoughts in literature or oration in
> public places is not
> > > a right. That is the line drawn, the public expression of the
> hatred of individuals
> > > or groups of individuals.
> > >
> > > Again, how is this unclear?
> >
> > Very clear. The problem is that your opinion not only abridges free
> > speech but raises the issue of what constitutes "hate speech."
> >
> > > If you want to get together with like minded individuals, on
> private property
> > > and speak about the hatred of certain indiviuals or groups of
individuals
> > > you are free to do so.
> > >
> > > How is this unclear?
> >
> > So it's OK to express hatred of terrorists privately but anyone who does
> > so publicly should be jailed? Is that your position?
>
>
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> > > > To: [email protected]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 11:34:43 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider
> > > >
> > > > On 10 Jun 2009 at 8:25, X Acto wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > He did already Platt,
> > > > > "hate speech against
> > > > > > specific individuals or groups of individuals."
> > > > >
> > > > > differs from hate speech about ideas.
> > > > >
> > > > > See what I mean about reading what is written and jumping
> to conclusions?
> > > > >
> > > > > -Ron
> > > >
> > > > So is it your idea that someone can speak without having any idea of
> > > > what she is saying?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> > > > > To: [email protected]
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 11:15:39 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider
> > > > >
> > > > > On 10 Jun 2009 at 17:03, Andre Broersen wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Platt to Andre:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Does your country have a law against hate speech? If so,
> do you support it?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Andre:
> > > > > > In Holland we enjoy freedom of speech and the hate may be
> expressed against
> > > > > > any IDEA circulated. (recent verdict of the high court).
> This I fully
> > > > > > support. The story is different when one begins to spout
> hate speech against
> > > > > > specific individuals or groups of individuals.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Nice diversion and good try but do answer the questions
> posed Platt.
> > > > >
> > > > > So you do support hate speech laws? Right?
> > > > >
> > > > > Can you explain the difference between an idea spoken and a hateful
> > > > > idea spoken?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> >
> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > Archives:
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > Archives:
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
>
>
>Moq_Discuss mailing list
>Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>Archives:
>http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
>
>
>
>
>Moq_Discuss mailing list
>Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>Archives:
>http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
>
>
>
>
>Moq_Discuss mailing list
>Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>Archives:
>http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
>
>
>
>
>Moq_Discuss mailing list
>Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>Archives:
>http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
>
>
>
>
>Moq_Discuss mailing list
>Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>Archives:
>http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
>
>
>
>
>Moq_Discuss mailing list
>Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>Archives:
>http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
>
>
>
>
>Moq_Discuss mailing list
>Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>Archives:
>http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
>
>
>
>
>Moq_Discuss mailing list
>Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>Archives:
>http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
>
>
>
>
>Moq_Discuss mailing list
>Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>Archives:
>http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
_____________
"He who neglects the present moment throws away all he has."
(Friedrich von Schiller)
Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
Archives:
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
Archives:
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
