What do you say we change the thread to free speech
________________________________ From: MarshaV <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 1:34:48 PM Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider Hi, No response required, but isn't this what happened to Nick? That's how I see it. Marsha At 01:27 PM 6/11/2009, you wrote: >M K: >Ron obviously speech can be hate speech and hate speech can be >terrorism if we allow those people who have the most to gain from >such definitions to be the definers. This seems to be the case. > >The question then becomes: Who are they and what to they have to gain? > >Really think about this. > >Ron: >You mean like if the Gov. defined you as a combatant if you >threatened them in >some fashion, yea, you'd be screwed with habious corpus abolished, defined >as a terrorist you'd go to gitmo and be waterboarded. > > > > > > >________________________________ >From: M K <[email protected]> >To: [email protected] >Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:31:12 PM >Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider > >Ron obviously speech can be hate speech and hate speech can be >terrorism if we allow those people who have the most to gain from >such definitions to be the definers. This seems to be the case. > >The question then becomes: Who are they and what to they have to gain? > >Really think about this. > > > > > > > > >________________________________ >From: X Acto <[email protected]> >To: [email protected] >Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:03:38 AM >Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider > >Which then we have the definition for terrorism > >Terrorism >The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person >or an organized group against people or property with the intention >of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for >ideological or political reasons. >http://www.answers.com/topic/terrorism > >or > >Terrorism is a policy or ideology of violence[1] intended to >intimidate or cause terror[2] for the purpose of "exerting pressure >on decision making by state bodies."[ >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism > > >Making it an interesting topic of conversation, is hate speech terrorism? >If not why not? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >________________________________ >From: X Acto <[email protected]> >To: [email protected] >Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 11:55:11 AM >Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider > >OK laughing boy > >here is a definition for you. > > >Hate speech - Definition > > >Hate speech is a controversial term for speech intended to degrade, >intimidate, or incite violence or prejudicial action against someone >based on their race, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sexual >orientation, or disability. The term covers written as well as oral >communication. >Found at: >http://us.mg4.mail.yahoo.com/dc/launch?.gx=0&.rand=56q7ubtfov871 > >I never said it was not a controversial issue, and it certainly >isn't cut and dried. >I was asked for my opion and I gave it. >I apologize for taking your smugness for sarcasm. > >hugs-n-kisses > > > >________________________________ >From: M K <[email protected]> >To: [email protected] >Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 11:49:00 AM >Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider > >Ron I am not advocating here. I am ASKING for a coherent argument. I >want to understand. > >I am rarely sarcastic. Sarcasm implies bitterness. Bitterness implies defeat. > >Please read what I write and then answer. > >Have a good one. ( whatever that means ) > > > > >________________________________ >From: X Acto <[email protected]> >To: [email protected] >Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:40:48 AM >Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider > >M K >Do you have an coherent argument? I have yet to see one from you >short of the love of sarcasm. > >-Ron > > > >________________________________ >From: M K <[email protected]> >To: [email protected] >Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 11:34:44 AM >Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider > >Ron you obviously don't know what you are talking about. You seem to >think you know what the definition of "hate speech" is, but you are >simply plugging in your own emotional needs. > >It doesn't seem to bother you that those individuals and groups who >are in a position to define this term legally and enforce it through >the government do so to satisfy political and social agendas, and >without regard for individual freedoms. > >I have yet to hear a coherent argument in favor of such laws. Just >drivel. But I wait patiently... > >It's funny to me that otherwise intelligent people can turn their >brains off to an important issue if it is considered socially >distasteful. Social trumping Intellect. Or Biology trumping Social >trumping Intellect. The mechanism for Pirsig's hierarchy is right here. > >Have a nice day Ron and thanks for your ideas. > > > > >________________________________ >From: X Acto <[email protected]> >To: [email protected] >Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 6:54:49 AM >Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider > >Platt, >PC, as far as I know, is a social standard for politeness in public >nothing more. >Hate speech in public places is alive and well, . As far as I >know Platt all you need is a permit provided one is granted, otherwise >you'll probably get fined for loitering and disturbing the peace if you don't >move along and take it someplace else if asked. > >Same goes for School or work, if it bothers others and creates a disturbance >and if you refuse to stop, then yes you should be asked to leave. > >Hate speech is a term for speech intended to offendor intimidate a >person or group of people >by threatening physical harm (towards people or their property) or >inciting others to threaten such harm. > >It boils down to intent Platt. If you intend to intimidate or >threaten a person or group >or incite others to do so, you should be fined and jailed. > >sorry to ruin your day but a lynch mob is not an extention of free speech. > > >Terrorists use hate speech don't they? to terrorize others? >Is it your opinion that this is their right to free speech? > > > > > > > > > > >________________________________ >From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >To: [email protected] >Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:05:47 AM >Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider > >On 10 Jun 2009 at 19:23, X Acto wrote: > > > Platt, > > Jailed, you silly man. when did jail come into it? > >How do you think laws are enforced? > > > what liberals call political correctness > > is what your generation called having some manners in public. did > you talk like a sailor on leave in front of your girl or her > freinds? heck no! you would'nt get laid...... > >Your right except liberals coerce compliance with what they consider >politically correct by legislating speech codes in schools and workplaces. >There's a big difference between losing out with a date and losing a job. >PC is a back door attack on free speech. Hate speech laws are an overt >attack on free speech. > > > terrorists is a broad general term, covers alot. Terrorism is a > better way to hate, > > thats an idea worthy of some fuckin hate, and I'm all with you. > Individual people? > > dunno Platt. but the idea of terrorism I'm all friggin with ya freind. > >A terrorist is someone who engages in terrorism, disguising himself as a >civilian, strapping on a bomb and blowing himself up in a crowded >market, deliberately killing dozens if not hundreds of noncombatants. In >the case of 9/11, terrorists hijacked airplanes and killed over 3,000. So >yes, I hate terrorists. > >But, what is your answer to my question? :Does someone violate a hate >speech law if he expresses hatred of terrorists in public like I just did? > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 5:29:35 PM > > Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider > > > > On 10 Jun 2009 at 9:47, X Acto wrote: > > > > > Ron: > > > How exactly is the Gov. going to police your thoughts? > > > > By enforcing hate speech laws with fines and/or jail terms. > > > > > I think thoughts about hating individuals or groups of > individuals is an individual > > > right, expressing those thoughts in literature or oration in > public places is not > > > a right. That is the line drawn, the public expression of the > hatred of individuals > > > or groups of individuals. > > > > > > Again, how is this unclear? > > > > Very clear. The problem is that your opinion not only abridges free > > speech but raises the issue of what constitutes "hate speech." > > > > > If you want to get together with like minded individuals, on > private property > > > and speak about the hatred of certain indiviuals or groups of individuals > > > you are free to do so. > > > > > > How is this unclear? > > > > So it's OK to express hatred of terrorists privately but anyone who does > > so publicly should be jailed? Is that your position? > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 11:34:43 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider > > > > > > > > On 10 Jun 2009 at 8:25, X Acto wrote: > > > > > > > > > He did already Platt, > > > > > "hate speech against > > > > > > specific individuals or groups of individuals." > > > > > > > > > > differs from hate speech about ideas. > > > > > > > > > > See what I mean about reading what is written and jumping > to conclusions? > > > > > > > > > > -Ron > > > > > > > > So is it your idea that someone can speak without having any idea of > > > > what she is saying? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 11:15:39 AM > > > > > Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider > > > > > > > > > > On 10 Jun 2009 at 17:03, Andre Broersen wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Platt to Andre: > > > > > > > > > > > > Does your country have a law against hate speech? If so, > do you support it? > > > > > > > > > > > > Andre: > > > > > > In Holland we enjoy freedom of speech and the hate may be > expressed against > > > > > > any IDEA circulated. (recent verdict of the high court). > This I fully > > > > > > support. The story is different when one begins to spout > hate speech against > > > > > > specific individuals or groups of individuals. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nice diversion and good try but do answer the questions > posed Platt. > > > > > > > > > > So you do support hate speech laws? Right? > > > > > > > > > > Can you explain the difference between an idea spoken and a hateful > > > > > idea spoken? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > >Moq_Discuss mailing list >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >Archives: >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > >Moq_Discuss mailing list >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >Archives: >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > >Moq_Discuss mailing list >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >Archives: >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > >Moq_Discuss mailing list >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >Archives: >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > >Moq_Discuss mailing list >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >Archives: >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > >Moq_Discuss mailing list >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >Archives: >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > >Moq_Discuss mailing list >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >Archives: >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > >Moq_Discuss mailing list >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >Archives: >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > >Moq_Discuss mailing list >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >Archives: >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ _____________ "He who neglects the present moment throws away all he has." 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