M K: Ron obviously speech can be hate speech and hate speech can be terrorism if we allow those people who have the most to gain from such definitions to be the definers. This seems to be the case.
The question then becomes: Who are they and what to they have to gain? Really think about this. Ron: You mean like if the Gov. defined you as a combatant if you threatened them in some fashion, yea, you'd be screwed with habious corpus abolished, defined as a terrorist you'd go to gitmo and be waterboarded. ________________________________ From: M K <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 12:31:12 PM Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider Ron obviously speech can be hate speech and hate speech can be terrorism if we allow those people who have the most to gain from such definitions to be the definers. This seems to be the case. The question then becomes: Who are they and what to they have to gain? Really think about this. ________________________________ From: X Acto <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 9:03:38 AM Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider Which then we have the definition for terrorism Terrorism The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons. http://www.answers.com/topic/terrorism or Terrorism is a policy or ideology of violence[1] intended to intimidate or cause terror[2] for the purpose of "exerting pressure on decision making by state bodies."[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism Making it an interesting topic of conversation, is hate speech terrorism? If not why not? ________________________________ From: X Acto <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 11:55:11 AM Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider OK laughing boy here is a definition for you. Hate speech - Definition Hate speech is a controversial term for speech intended to degrade, intimidate, or incite violence or prejudicial action against someone based on their race, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sexual orientation, or disability. The term covers written as well as oral communication. Found at: http://us.mg4.mail.yahoo.com/dc/launch?.gx=0&.rand=56q7ubtfov871 I never said it was not a controversial issue, and it certainly isn't cut and dried. I was asked for my opion and I gave it. I apologize for taking your smugness for sarcasm. hugs-n-kisses ________________________________ From: M K <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 11:49:00 AM Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider Ron I am not advocating here. I am ASKING for a coherent argument. I want to understand. I am rarely sarcastic. Sarcasm implies bitterness. Bitterness implies defeat. Please read what I write and then answer. Have a good one. ( whatever that means ) ________________________________ From: X Acto <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:40:48 AM Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider M K Do you have an coherent argument? I have yet to see one from you short of the love of sarcasm. -Ron ________________________________ From: M K <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 11:34:44 AM Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider Ron you obviously don't know what you are talking about. You seem to think you know what the definition of "hate speech" is, but you are simply plugging in your own emotional needs. It doesn't seem to bother you that those individuals and groups who are in a position to define this term legally and enforce it through the government do so to satisfy political and social agendas, and without regard for individual freedoms. I have yet to hear a coherent argument in favor of such laws. Just drivel. But I wait patiently... It's funny to me that otherwise intelligent people can turn their brains off to an important issue if it is considered socially distasteful. Social trumping Intellect. Or Biology trumping Social trumping Intellect. The mechanism for Pirsig's hierarchy is right here. Have a nice day Ron and thanks for your ideas. ________________________________ From: X Acto <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 6:54:49 AM Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider Platt, PC, as far as I know, is a social standard for politeness in public nothing more. Hate speech in public places is alive and well, . As far as I know Platt all you need is a permit provided one is granted, otherwise you'll probably get fined for loitering and disturbing the peace if you don't move along and take it someplace else if asked. Same goes for School or work, if it bothers others and creates a disturbance and if you refuse to stop, then yes you should be asked to leave. Hate speech is a term for speech intended to offendor intimidate a person or group of people by threatening physical harm (towards people or their property) or inciting others to threaten such harm. It boils down to intent Platt. If you intend to intimidate or threaten a person or group or incite others to do so, you should be fined and jailed. sorry to ruin your day but a lynch mob is not an extention of free speech. Terrorists use hate speech don't they? to terrorize others? Is it your opinion that this is their right to free speech? ________________________________ From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 8:05:47 AM Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider On 10 Jun 2009 at 19:23, X Acto wrote: > Platt, > Jailed, you silly man. when did jail come into it? How do you think laws are enforced? > what liberals call political correctness > is what your generation called having some manners in public. did you talk > like a sailor on leave in front of your girl or her freinds? heck no! you > would'nt get laid...... Your right except liberals coerce compliance with what they consider politically correct by legislating speech codes in schools and workplaces. There's a big difference between losing out with a date and losing a job. PC is a back door attack on free speech. Hate speech laws are an overt attack on free speech. > terrorists is a broad general term, covers alot. Terrorism is a better way to > hate, > thats an idea worthy of some fuckin hate, and I'm all with you. Individual > people? > dunno Platt. but the idea of terrorism I'm all friggin with ya freind. A terrorist is someone who engages in terrorism, disguising himself as a civilian, strapping on a bomb and blowing himself up in a crowded market, deliberately killing dozens if not hundreds of noncombatants. In the case of 9/11, terrorists hijacked airplanes and killed over 3,000. So yes, I hate terrorists. But, what is your answer to my question? :Does someone violate a hate speech law if he expresses hatred of terrorists in public like I just did? > ________________________________ > From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 5:29:35 PM > Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider > > On 10 Jun 2009 at 9:47, X Acto wrote: > > > Ron: > > How exactly is the Gov. going to police your thoughts? > > By enforcing hate speech laws with fines and/or jail terms. > > > I think thoughts about hating individuals or groups of individuals is an > > individual > > right, expressing those thoughts in literature or oration in public places > > is not > > a right. That is the line drawn, the public expression of the hatred of > > individuals > > or groups of individuals. > > > > Again, how is this unclear? > > Very clear. The problem is that your opinion not only abridges free > speech but raises the issue of what constitutes "hate speech." > > > If you want to get together with like minded individuals, on private > > property > > and speak about the hatred of certain indiviuals or groups of individuals > > you are free to do so. > > > > How is this unclear? > > So it's OK to express hatred of terrorists privately but anyone who does > so publicly should be jailed? Is that your position? > > > ________________________________ > > > From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > > > To: [email protected] > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 11:34:43 AM > > > Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider > > > > > > On 10 Jun 2009 at 8:25, X Acto wrote: > > > > > > > He did already Platt, > > > > "hate speech against > > > > > specific individuals or groups of individuals." > > > > > > > > differs from hate speech about ideas. > > > > > > > > See what I mean about reading what is written and jumping to > > > > conclusions? > > > > > > > > -Ron > > > > > > So is it your idea that someone can speak without having any idea of > > > what she is saying? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 11:15:39 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [MD] An Observation From An Outsider > > > > > > > > On 10 Jun 2009 at 17:03, Andre Broersen wrote: > > > > > > > > > Platt to Andre: > > > > > > > > > > Does your country have a law against hate speech? If so, do you > > > > > support it? > > > > > > > > > > Andre: > > > > > In Holland we enjoy freedom of speech and the hate may be expressed > > > > > against > > > > > any IDEA circulated. (recent verdict of the high court). This I fully > > > > > support. The story is different when one begins to spout hate speech > > > > > against > > > > > specific individuals or groups of individuals. > > > > > > > > > > Nice diversion and good try but do answer the questions posed Platt. > > > > > > > > So you do support hate speech laws? Right? > > > > > > > > Can you explain the difference between an idea spoken and a hateful > > > > idea spoken? > > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
