sorry to be so rude, but surely the two are not the same - the socratic method is essentially one of questioning such that the quastionee reaches a logical impasse borne of their own answers - in the koan one can transcend the logical impasse.
--- On Wed, 24/6/09, X Acto <[email protected]> wrote: > From: X Acto <[email protected]> > Subject: [MD] Pirsig, Socratic method and the koan (another question for Ant) > To: [email protected] > Received: Wednesday, 24 June, 2009, 1:41 AM > Anthony, > > I assert the idea that RMP was in fact using Socratic > method, for he was using > the literary device of the Koan, they are one in the same > device. East and West > Philosophy are united in the utilization of it. > > I feel this has a huge impact on the understanding of the > MoQ. > > Do you see the same? > (comparisons below) > > “LILA was originally conceived of as a case-book in > philosophy. ‘Does Lila > have Quality?’ is its central question. It was > intended to parallel the > ancient Rinzai Zen koans (which literally means ‘public > cases,’) and in > particular, Joshu’s ‘Mu,’ which asks, ‘Does a dog > have a Buddha nature?’.” > (Pirsig 2002d) > > Koan: > From wiki- > kōan is a story, dialogue, question, or statement in > the history and lore of Zen Buddhism, generally > containing aspects that are inaccessible to rational > understanding, yet may be accessible to intuition. > English-speaking non-Zen practitioners sometimes use kōan > to refer to an unanswerable question or a > meaningless statement. However, in Zen practice, a kōan is > not meaningless, and teachers often do > expect students to present an appropriate response when > asked about a kōan. Even so, a kōan is not > a riddle or a puzzle.[1] Appropriate responses to a kōan > may vary according to circumstances; > different teachers may demand different responses to a > given kōan, and a fixed answer cannot be > correct in every circumstance. > A kōan or part of a kōan may serve as a point of > concentration during meditation and other activities, > often called "kōan practice" (as distinct from "kōan > study", the study of kōan literature). Generally, > a qualified teacher provides instruction in kōan practice > to qualified students in private. In the > Wumenguan (Mumonkan), public case #1 ("Zhaozhou's Dog"), > Wumen (Mumon) wrote "...concentrate yourself > into this 'Wu'...making your whole body one great inquiry. > Day and night work intently at it. Do not > attempt nihilistic or dualistic interpretations."[3] > Arousing this great inquiry, or "Great Doubt" > is an essential element of kōan practice. > > Socratic method: > From wiki- > > According to W. K. C. Guthrie's The Greek Philosophers, > while sometimes erroneously believed to be > a method by which one seeks the answer to a problem, or > knowledge, the Socratic method was actually > intended to demonstrate one's ignorance. Socrates, unlike > the Sophists, did believe that knowledge > was possible, but believed that the first step to knowledge > was recognition of one's ignorance. > Guthrie writes, "[Socrates] was accustomed to say that he > did not himself know anything, and that > the only way in which he was wiser than other men was that > he was conscious of his own ignorance, > while they were not. The essence of the Socratic method is > to convince the interlocutor that whereas > he thought he knew something, in fact he does not." > Socrates generally applied his method of examination to > concepts that seem to lack any concrete > definition; e.g., the key moral concepts at the time, the > virtues of piety, wisdom, temperance, > courage, and justice. Such an examination challenged the > implicit moral beliefs of the interlocutors, > bringing out inadequacies and inconsistencies in their > beliefs, and usually resulting in puzzlement > known as aporia. > > Application: > (1) Kōan is a Japanese rendering of the Chinese term > (公案), transliterated kung-an (Wade-Giles) or gōng'àn > (Pinyin). Chung Feng Ming Pen (中峰明本 1263-1323) > wrote that kung-an is an abbreviation for kung-fu an-tu > (公府之案牘, Pinyin gōngfǔ zhī àndú, pronounced > in Japanese as ko-fu no an-toku), which referred to a > "public record" or the "case records of a public law > court" > > > (2) Traditionally, the casebook method is coupled with the > Socratic method in American law schools. > For a given class, a professor will assign several cases > from the casebook to read, and may also > require students to be familiar with any notes following > those cases. In class, the professor will > ask students questions about the assigned cases to > determine whether they identified and understood > the correct rule from the case, if there is one — in > certain heavily contested areas of the law, > there will not be any one correct rule. > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Access Yahoo!7 Mail on your mobile. Anytime. Anywhere. Show me how: http://au.mobile.yahoo.com/mail Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
