hey ron, you know i think you are probably on to something there. more similar than different i would say after now thinking about it and reading what you posted. cheers gav
--- On Thu, 25/6/09, X Acto <[email protected]> wrote: > From: X Acto <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [MD] Pirsig, Socratic method and the koan (another question for > Ant) > To: [email protected] > Received: Thursday, 25 June, 2009, 1:24 AM > Gav, > If by logical impasse a new understanding is gained, how do > they differ? > Do'nt they both make us question our static values? > > you are not being rude > > -Ron > > > > > ________________________________ > From: gav <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 10:51:13 AM > Subject: Re: [MD] Pirsig, Socratic method and the koan > (another question for Ant) > > > sorry to be so rude, > but surely the two are not the same - the socratic method > is essentially one of questioning such that the quastionee > reaches a logical impasse borne of their own answers - in > the koan one can transcend the logical impasse. > > > > > --- On Wed, 24/6/09, X Acto <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > From: X Acto <[email protected]> > > Subject: [MD] Pirsig, Socratic method and the koan > (another question for Ant) > > To: [email protected] > > Received: Wednesday, 24 June, 2009, 1:41 AM > > Anthony, > > > > I assert the idea that RMP was in fact using > Socratic > > method, for he was using > > the literary device of the Koan, they are one in the > same > > device. East and West > > Philosophy are united in the utilization of it. > > > > I feel this has a huge impact on the understanding of > the > > MoQ. > > > > Do you see the same? > > (comparisons below) > > > > “LILA was originally conceived of as a case-book > in > > philosophy. ‘Does Lila > > have Quality?’ is its central question. It was > > intended to parallel the > > ancient Rinzai Zen koans (which literally means > ‘public > > cases,’) and in > > particular, Joshu’s ‘Mu,’ which asks, ‘Does > a dog > > have a Buddha nature?’.” > > (Pirsig 2002d) > > > > Koan: > > From wiki- > > kōan is a story, dialogue, question, or statement > in > > the history and lore of Zen Buddhism, generally > > containing aspects that are inaccessible to rational > > understanding, yet may be accessible to intuition. > > English-speaking non-Zen practitioners sometimes use > kōan > > to refer to an unanswerable question or a > > meaningless statement. However, in Zen practice, a > kōan is > > not meaningless, and teachers often do > > expect students to present an appropriate response > when > > asked about a kōan. Even so, a kōan is not > > a riddle or a puzzle.[1] Appropriate responses to a > kōan > > may vary according to circumstances; > > different teachers may demand different responses to > a > > given kōan, and a fixed answer cannot be > > correct in every circumstance. > > A kōan or part of a kōan may serve as a point of > > concentration during meditation and other activities, > > > often called "kōan practice" (as distinct from > "kōan > > study", the study of kōan literature). Generally, > > a qualified teacher provides instruction in kōan > practice > > to qualified students in private. In the > > Wumenguan (Mumonkan), public case #1 ("Zhaozhou's > Dog"), > > Wumen (Mumon) wrote "...concentrate yourself > > into this 'Wu'...making your whole body one great > inquiry. > > Day and night work intently at it. Do not > > attempt nihilistic or dualistic interpretations."[3] > > Arousing this great inquiry, or "Great Doubt" > > is an essential element of kōan practice. > > > > Socratic method: > > From wiki- > > > > According to W. K. C. Guthrie's The Greek > Philosophers, > > while sometimes erroneously believed to be > > a method by which one seeks the answer to a problem, > or > > knowledge, the Socratic method was actually > > intended to demonstrate one's ignorance. Socrates, > unlike > > the Sophists, did believe that knowledge > > was possible, but believed that the first step to > knowledge > > was recognition of one's ignorance. > > Guthrie writes, "[Socrates] was accustomed to say that > he > > did not himself know anything, and that > > the only way in which he was wiser than other men was > that > > he was conscious of his own ignorance, > > while they were not. The essence of the Socratic > method is > > to convince the interlocutor that whereas > > he thought he knew something, in fact he does not." > > Socrates generally applied his method of examination > to > > concepts that seem to lack any concrete > > definition; e.g., the key moral concepts at the time, > the > > virtues of piety, wisdom, temperance, > > courage, and justice. Such an examination challenged > the > > implicit moral beliefs of the interlocutors, > > bringing out inadequacies and inconsistencies in > their > > beliefs, and usually resulting in puzzlement > > known as aporia. > > > > Application: > > (1) Kōan is a Japanese rendering of the Chinese term > > (公案), transliterated kung-an (Wade-Giles) or > gōng'àn > > (Pinyin). Chung Feng Ming Pen (中峰明本 > 1263-1323) > > wrote that kung-an is an abbreviation for kung-fu > an-tu > > (公府之案牘, Pinyin gōngfǔ zhī àndú, > pronounced > > in Japanese as ko-fu no an-toku), which referred to a > > > "public record" or the "case records of a public law > > court" > > > > > > (2) Traditionally, the casebook method is coupled with > the > > Socratic method in American law schools. > > For a given class, a professor will assign several > cases > > from the casebook to read, and may also > > require students to be familiar with any notes > following > > those cases. In class, the professor will > > ask students questions about the assigned cases to > > determine whether they identified and understood > > the correct rule from the case, if there is one — > in > > certain heavily contested areas of the law, > > there will not be any one correct rule. > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > Access Yahoo!7 Mail on your mobile. Anytime. > Anywhere. > Show me how: http://au.mobile.yahoo.com/mail > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Access Yahoo!7 Mail on your mobile. Anytime. Anywhere. Show me how: http://au.mobile.yahoo.com/mail Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
