Gav, After doing some searching, it seems I am not alone, Mike King writes of Socrates being a mystic, he describes him as having "fits of abstraction":
"2.2.2.2. Fits of Abstraction Another, entirely different, piece of evidence for Socrates' status as mystic lies in the several accounts of his 'fits of abstraction'. I have put this term in quotation marks because I believe that we have come to use it in connection with Socrates without any clear idea of what it means, or what alternative terms we could use. In the West this term could mean anything from what was intended by the old-fashioned 'brown study' (an absent-minded state that required perhaps a vigorous interruption to recall its owner to his or her surroundings) to 'catatonic schizophrenia' (a state of complete unresponsiveness lasting for days, months or years, as with Nietzsche in his latter days). Bertrand Russell uses the term 'cataleptic trance,' [35]while Bucke, as we saw, preferred 'catalepsy.' However, in the context of mysticism it might easily be that his states are better described by the terms samadhi (Indian) or satori (Japanese) both of which mean a state of ecstatic union. If Socrates' states were short in duration, and it was relatively easy to bring him out of them (snapping one's fingers, shouting, or even, as legend has it, the emptying of a chamber-pot over him by his wife) then the former terms, 'fits of abstraction' or 'brown study' might be appropriate. If the length of these states were longer and accompanied by a clear deterioration in mental health, then 'catatonic schizophrenia' might be appropriate. However, what the reports tell us are of states lasting from several hours to a day, where all attempts to reach him failed, followed by no adverse mental or physical effects. These reports have more similarities, I would suggest, with the spontaneous samadhis so well-documented (for example) of Ramakrishna and Ramana Maharshi (see cover page for the well-known photograph of Ramakrishna in samadhi: he is supported by a disciple because he was liable to fall and hurt himself). Plato assumes that Socrates was either lost in thought, or needing to solve a problem during these states: we never hear however of the particular train of thought or solved problem resulting from a specific episode." "2.2.2.7. The Socratic 'Method' as Zen Koan In Plato and Xenophon's Socratic dialogues we are invited to see a 'method' of question and answer that leads Socrates' partner to see the truth. The nature of these dialogues will be examined later on, but the parallels with the Zen koan, also a form of question and answer are again possible evidence that Socrates was a mystic. The Socratic 'method' is traditionally presented as an exercise in reason or logic, whereas the Zen koan seems to be an exercise in the opposite: their (or rather the Zen Master's) operation is eminently unreasonable and illogical. The end result in Zen is to bring the student to a point of confusion or impasse in which sudden insight can occur as a mystical phenomenon. Typical Zen koans may be the questions, "what is the sound of one hand clapping", or "what is your original face". Socrates' questioning takes a very different form, following a programme of questions, though in both cases a dialogue of sorts may ensue. Evidence in favour of viewing the Socratic questioning as similar to the koan is this: they often leave the recipient stultified or confused. In the Meno the analogy with a stingray is used to describe this numbing or perplexing effect, [40]though with typical Socratic involution he accepts the analogy only if he is also numbed (rendered ignorant). In the Symposium Alcibiades tells us that the conversation of Socrates is 'utterly ridiculous' to the uninitiated." http://www.jnani.org/mrking/writings/essays/essaysukc/socmysc.html#part2 ________________________________ From: X Acto <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 11:24:18 AM Subject: Re: [MD] Pirsig, Socratic method and the koan (another question for Ant) Gav, If by logical impasse a new understanding is gained, how do they differ? Do'nt they both make us question our static values? you are not being rude -Ron ________________________________ From: gav <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 10:51:13 AM Subject: Re: [MD] Pirsig, Socratic method and the koan (another question for Ant) sorry to be so rude, but surely the two are not the same - the socratic method is essentially one of questioning such that the quastionee reaches a logical impasse borne of their own answers - in the koan one can transcend the logical impasse. --- On Wed, 24/6/09, X Acto <[email protected]> wrote: > From: X Acto <[email protected]> > Subject: [MD] Pirsig, Socratic method and the koan (another question for Ant) > To: [email protected] > Received: Wednesday, 24 June, 2009, 1:41 AM > Anthony, > > I assert the idea that RMP was in fact using Socratic > method, for he was using > the literary device of the Koan, they are one in the same > device. East and West > Philosophy are united in the utilization of it. > > I feel this has a huge impact on the understanding of the > MoQ. > > Do you see the same? > (comparisons below) > > “LILA was originally conceived of as a case-book in > philosophy. ‘Does Lila > have Quality?’ is its central question. It was > intended to parallel the > ancient Rinzai Zen koans (which literally means ‘public > cases,’) and in > particular, Joshu’s ‘Mu,’ which asks, ‘Does a dog > have a Buddha nature?’.” > (Pirsig 2002d) > > Koan: > From wiki- > kōan is a story, dialogue, question, or statement in > the history and lore of Zen Buddhism, generally > containing aspects that are inaccessible to rational > understanding, yet may be accessible to intuition. > English-speaking non-Zen practitioners sometimes use kōan > to refer to an unanswerable question or a > meaningless statement. However, in Zen practice, a kōan is > not meaningless, and teachers often do > expect students to present an appropriate response when > asked about a kōan. Even so, a kōan is not > a riddle or a puzzle.[1] Appropriate responses to a kōan > may vary according to circumstances; > different teachers may demand different responses to a > given kōan, and a fixed answer cannot be > correct in every circumstance. > A kōan or part of a kōan may serve as a point of > concentration during meditation and other activities, > often called "kōan practice" (as distinct from "kōan > study", the study of kōan literature). Generally, > a qualified teacher provides instruction in kōan practice > to qualified students in private. In the > Wumenguan (Mumonkan), public case #1 ("Zhaozhou's Dog"), > Wumen (Mumon) wrote "...concentrate yourself > into this 'Wu'...making your whole body one great inquiry. > Day and night work intently at it. Do not > attempt nihilistic or dualistic interpretations."[3] > Arousing this great inquiry, or "Great Doubt" > is an essential element of kōan practice. > > Socratic method: > From wiki- > > According to W. K. C. Guthrie's The Greek Philosophers, > while sometimes erroneously believed to be > a method by which one seeks the answer to a problem, or > knowledge, the Socratic method was actually > intended to demonstrate one's ignorance. Socrates, unlike > the Sophists, did believe that knowledge > was possible, but believed that the first step to knowledge > was recognition of one's ignorance. > Guthrie writes, "[Socrates] was accustomed to say that he > did not himself know anything, and that > the only way in which he was wiser than other men was that > he was conscious of his own ignorance, > while they were not. The essence of the Socratic method is > to convince the interlocutor that whereas > he thought he knew something, in fact he does not." > Socrates generally applied his method of examination to > concepts that seem to lack any concrete > definition; e.g., the key moral concepts at the time, the > virtues of piety, wisdom, temperance, > courage, and justice. Such an examination challenged the > implicit moral beliefs of the interlocutors, > bringing out inadequacies and inconsistencies in their > beliefs, and usually resulting in puzzlement > known as aporia. > > Application: > (1) Kōan is a Japanese rendering of the Chinese term > (公案), transliterated kung-an (Wade-Giles) or gōng'àn > (Pinyin). Chung Feng Ming Pen (中峰明本 1263-1323) > wrote that kung-an is an abbreviation for kung-fu an-tu > (公府之案牘, Pinyin gōngfǔ zhī àndú, pronounced > in Japanese as ko-fu no an-toku), which referred to a > "public record" or the "case records of a public law > court" > > > (2) Traditionally, the casebook method is coupled with the > Socratic method in American law schools. > For a given class, a professor will assign several cases > from the casebook to read, and may also > require students to be familiar with any notes following > those cases. In class, the professor will > ask students questions about the assigned cases to > determine whether they identified and understood > the correct rule from the case, if there is one — in > certain heavily contested areas of the law, > there will not be any one correct rule. > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Access Yahoo!7 Mail on your mobile. Anytime. Anywhere. 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