John Carl: I would merely point out to the guy that he considers his ideas are right and therefore have quality. He will also have to admit his work has quality. As for a koan, how about, "Life is a series of value choices between the no choices of birth and death." Or, "It's impossible to live without having assumptions about what is good."
Platt On 27 Jun 2009 at 9:51, John Carl wrote: > So lately I've been helping a neighbor/friend with a little sheetrocking in > the morning. He needs a hand hanging the lid. > > > He's an interesting guy. A retired attorney of around my age (50ish) who > has been living here on the Ridge for about 10 years. A relative newcomer > to most of the folks around here, but a hard charging kind of guy who is > real involved as a community leader - on the county planning commission, > hosted politcal klatsches for a supervisor candidate (who won) and his wife > is the head of the school board where his and my son attend. We carpool a > lot, through the yuba canyon. > > > So we had them for dinner a month or so back, I'd told him about ZAMM, he > likes to discuss ideas and so he took it, read it, and I asked him about it > first day at work. > > > He didn't like it. Said it was full of crap he'd heard before. So I asked, > "You actually read the whole thing?" He didn't really answer me then but > instead launched into a tirade about the reality of gravity. So I figure > he must have gotten stuck at that point, but the fact that he couldn't just > admit that he rejected a book that he hadn't had the gumption to finish was > kinda weird and as later clues came together I understood that there is this > attorney-training thing happening in argumentation that is all about the > win, baby. They never concede a point and if any niggling misconstruation > is possible, they vehemently deny and oppress any point you're making as > well. > > > It can be a disconcerting style to deal with, to say the least. > > > Other similarities between my friend and Rigel, besides the community leader > and being attorneys, was the stiff morality. For those who observe a strict > victorian morality there seems to be an intensely emotional attachment to > "what they believe". In the middle of a rational discussion, he'd have to > stop and beg me to stop what we are doing (working on his project) so that > he could vehemently make his points. Usually points about free markets, > immorality of socialism, immorality of modernism and so forth. He's a > religious man, but has doubts about the bible. He didn't want to discuss > religion, but used the philosophy gained from a lifetime exposure (his folks > were missionaries) to religion and the bible to justify "his" world view. > When I pointed out that the self was an intellectual construct, he went > ballistic on me, but then later contradicted himself and conceded that > point, sort of. > > > Afterwards, I thought about the captain's encounter with Rigel and compared > our two experiences. I too felt helpless in the face of SOMish certainty. > One difference is that that the Captain headed on down the river and out of > Rigel's orbit forever. I went back to work the next morning and morn after > that and all next week and I'll be carpooling and neighbors forever. I have > some potential in the continuity of the relationship to get through to this > guy. But how? > > > How does a budding bodhisattva construct a koan for a Rigelian sheetrocker? > I must admit, he's the best sheetrock cutter I've ever worked with. The > house we're working on has many complicated angles and light fixtures. He > takes great pride in getting every single joint and cuttout exact. Unlike > the normal sheetrocker who cuts around outlets a little large, he cuts them > out a little small so that he can fine tune with his keyhole saw on > installation. He admits he is working to impress the tapers. But of course > who he's really working for is to impress himself. I've known a lot of > tapers and they're not usually the kind of guys who's approval would raise > anyone's status. Still, there is a craft involved in getting all the lines > perfect. I don't call it art, but its something. > > > Transferring the MoQ. That is the issue, eh? How? And maybe, why? Is it > my own egoistic desire to "convert" that is at the heart of my concern? Am > I trying to impress the kind of guy who's approval would raise my status? > Or am I striving to liberate a sentient being from samsara and lead them to > enlightenment? > > > If I choose, I choose the latter. But now we are back to the how. How to > construct a koan. How to lead out in a dialogue. How to deal with > self-satisfied SOM. An ongoing challenge. > > -- > ------------ > Doing Good IS Being > ------------ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
