Hi Steve, and all, I was musing on "Logos (word) is ergon (deed).
On 9/21/09 3:37 PM, "Steve Peterson" <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Joe, > > You've snipped a bit of a post of mine and pasted a post of Matt's. > I'm not sure what your point was in doing so. Do you see Matt's post > as answering mine? Can you explain how? > > Best, > Steve > > > > > On Sep 21, 2009, at 4:38 PM, Joseph Maurer wrote: > >> On Monday 21 September 2009 11.54 AM ³Steve Peterson² wrote: >> >> <snip> >> >> If belief is a habit of action, as the pragmatists say, is all action >> best described as some belief? Is faith--the aspect of faith that >> does not concern factual belief--something that could benefit from a >> pragmatist's re-describing now that religion fails to speak to so >> many of us? >> <snip> >> >> On Thursday 17 September 2009 11:21 PM ³Matt Kundert² wrote: >> >> Logos (word) is ergon (deed). >> >> Maybe that's why, Ron, you've always seemed to me to avoid >> pragmatism, which >> has at its heart the notion that our word is a deed. As J. L. >> Austin once >> said, "our word is our bond." One might deplore these ephemeral links >> holding up these magical towers in the sky called "culture" and >> "ego," like >> Andre, but without our word being a deed, an act with consequences, >> then all >> of this goes away--no computer, no books, no words, no thought, no >> humanity, >> no humans. It all goes away once we become truly unbonded. >> >> Various Eastern philosophies, and Western for that matter, may _on the >> surface_ suggest the betterness of such a thing, but they don't >> really. As >> Steve said, the Buddha exists as well inside a sentence as anything >> else. >> And Pirsig helps us triumph over such a silly notion as that the >> metaphysical illusion of culture and ego, ipso facto, mean they are >> purposeless fictions that should go away--everything has value. >> >> There are many conversations to be had about what is most valuable, >> but >> without a doubt, the Logos was the Ergon. >> >> Matt >> >> >> >> On 9/21/09 11:54 AM, "Steve Peterson" <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I was thinking about Boromir of Lord of the Rings. He was the great >>> warrior from Gondor who betrayed the Fellowship and tried to steal >>> the ring from Frodo causing Frodo to flea and continue the quest >>> alone joined only by Sam. >>> >>> Boromir's Journey was the failure of the Hero's Journey. Boromir >>> answered the call but was not fully committed himself to the quest. >>> The others were devoted to the quest regardless of the chances of >>> success. Boromir did not lack any belief that the others had. There >>> is no talk of belief in a higher authority where Boromir did not >>> believe or did not believe as strongly as the others in that higher >>> authority to set things right. When he argued that their task was >>> impossible, none of the others could disagree. I don't think he had >>> any different assessment of the probability of success for the >>> Fellowship's task as any other members of the Fellowship, yet he was >>> in great despair, and the others were not--at least not to the degree >>> that Boromir was. I think the others had faith and that Boromir's >>> lack of faith destroyed him and that his lack of faith was not a lack >>> of belief. The difference was not the presence of absence of an >>> intellectual structure but an attitude toward the world or trust in >>> the process of life. >>> >>> Though he is a fictional character, the self-destruction of Boromir >>> rings true to me. There is something to faith that is not about >>> belief but about something else that needs to be better articulated. >>> It is something that is important to both believers and nonbelievers. >>> I think the opposite of the sort of faith that Boromir's story is an >>> allegory for is not disbelief but despair and that faith of this sort >>> is not assenting to factual claims but letting go and being >>> comfortable with not being in control of everything. It is possible >>> to believe that God exists and that the Bible is true and still >>> despair. So even religious beliefs do not exhaust faith. I think it >>> is also saying "yes" to life. It is possible to not believe in a >>> divine authority and still feel that the universe is unfolding >>> exactly as it should be often in spite of the facts. It is an >>> attitude tied up in beauty. It is the understanding that the world of >>> our desires--the world that does not include illness, death, and >>> conflict--is not as beautiful and perfect as the world as it actually >>> is. >>> >>> I don't think it is a stretch to say that the story of Boromir is a >>> story about faith since Tolkien was a Christian and is viewed as a >>> Christian writer, so faith is the sort of issue that we may expect >>> him to address in his fiction. >>> >>> What do you think? Is faith the same as factual belief as >>> fundamentalists seem to be saying it is? Or is faith something that >>> is independent of belief as in the case of Boromir? Can you help me >>> articulate what it is? >>> >>> If belief is a habit of action, as the pragmatists say, is all action >>> best described as some belief? Is faith--the aspect of faith that >>> does not concern factual belief--something that could benefit from a >>> pragmatist's re-describing now that religion fails to speak to so >>> many of us? >>> >>> What does any of this have to do with the MOQ? I don't know, maybe >>> you can tell me? >>> >>> Could I be any more geeky than to philosophize about elves, dwarves, >>> and hobbits? Probably not. Can you think of any parallels to >>> Boromir's story in less nerdy culture? >>> >>> Best, >>> Steve >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
