I understand enough to stay out of your way..
----- Original Message ---- From: MarshaV <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:45:46 AM Subject: Re: [MD] [Bulk] Re: The MOQ/Zen relationship. and you be misunderstanding... -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of X Acto Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 7:43 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [MD] [Bulk] Re: The MOQ/Zen relationship. well that answered my question Marsha you be angry ----- Original Message ---- From: MarshaV <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 6:32:33 AM Subject: Re: [MD] [Bulk] Re: The MOQ/Zen relationship. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Andre Broersen Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 5:47 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [Bulk] Re: [MD] The MOQ/Zen relationship. Marsha to Andre: Are you saying my statement is incorrect? I think that to understand the emptiness of self and phenomenon is to eliminate the tendency to grasp which causes suffering. But I am not a Buddhist, so I could certainly be misinterpreting the dharma. Andre: Hi Marsha. I think your statement is correct. The idea of self is useful, convenient and practical and as Pirsig says, references to the self, the 'I' etc etc are so ingrained in our language it is impossible to get rid of them (Lila, p158). Í am not a Buddhist either but the MoQ suggests that when you begin to dissect 'substance'/phenomenon (PoV's) you end up thinking about nothing whatsoever. I tend to think that the same applies to this notion of 'self'. If 'we' are patterns of value which patterns contain the self? Which pattern is yours and which is mine? Which specific set of patterns define my 'self' ? To cling to these as if they are real and desirable causes suffering because they are not true. I am presently working my way through Nagarjuna's "Fundamental Wisdom..." which I find very difficult, so use Steve Hagen to keep my feet on the ground, and am barely able to follow his reasoning which leads to his conviction that the self is empty. At present this is an intuitive conviction for me. Regarding the dharma. It may well have something to do with small and big self. The dharma which you find within your own patterns is a recognition of your big self (which is recognising Dynamic Quality). And who owns DQ? Ha!! DQ 'owns'/has small self. DQ has no boundaries and if 'self' is not a boundary I do not know what is. Not sure if this is helpful Marsha. Andre PS: Reanney's use of the boy-statue and associated metaphor filled me with apprehension as well. He could have used a more appropriate and sensitive metaphor to get his point across. Andre, Yes, you have been helpful. I have wondered that my intermingling of the MoQ and Buddhism has caused confusion, but in the end it has been helpful, and I love both. While my understanding may be incomplete, the generous gifts bestowed have been beneficial beyond words. I am grateful that you admit apprehension concerning Reanney's metaphor, for I could imagine many, many thousands reading this book and taking such statements for granted, as truth. Those paragraphs jumped off the page at me and hit me with a great, painful force. And I felt helpless to find the proper weapon, words or syntax, with which to defend myself, let alone fight back. (It is a problem because I am a warrior at heart.) This 'useful self' felt angry, deflated and useless. I am still angry. I am angry for my daughter and granddaughters, and all mothers, all daughters and all granddaughters. Men suffer because of this too. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
