On 9 Dec 2009 at 19:20, Andre Broersen wrote: > Platt to Andre: > I doubt if Tiger Woods' wife is feeling much "harmonious balance" right > now. > > Andre: > I honestly don't know what Tiger Woods has been up to lately Platt. > I only know he is a great golfer.
Hey Andre, Tiger Woods has been caught cheating on his wife and two kids, to the tune of at least seven other women. Biology on the rampage. > Platt: > Don't you mean "IF they survived through their own means?" What's > missing is a description of the conditions the laborers suffered before > they were "dispossessed" (whatever that means).. > > Andre: > Times were tough in them days Platt, but apart from inclement weather > conditions they were in control of their own lives and livelyhoods.In > other words, they had freedom and self-determination. > They were disposessed because the land they had lived on for > generations (back to feudal days) was sold from underneath them by > their 'lords', (property owners aided by government legislation), to > 'developers' (railroad construction, factory building, changes into > what people were allowed to grow etc, etc...for profit). In other > words, from one day to the next people had no livelyhood. Arlo spoke > of this very recently as well. I wonder how much freedom they had since their "lords" demanded much of their produce. Also just to survive they had to work from dawn to dusk doing backbreaking work, and their life expectancy was about half of what it is today in modern societies. In the U.S. at least people control their own lives more than at anytime in history. The entrepreneurial spirit is still alive and well, although under the current administration it is being slowly but surely smothered by increasing government intrusion and interference. > Platt: > A different view of current working conditions in China is found here: > > Andre: > China is a big place Platt, as you know, and are, at this 'free-market > stuff' for nearly 20 years. Still very recent and new for them. I'd > call the 'execution' of someone for 'taking bribes and failing to > supervise production properly' pretty severe. > Thing is that in such a developing market economy one cannot rely on > the market itself to regulate these things. That's what 'higher' > bodies are for, at government level. A social level mechanism to > detect, control and, if possible destroy, biological level instances > of 'law of the jungle'' practices motivated by selfish greed. > The cultural history of China is so enmeshed with the > biological/social that they really are very new at this....and of > course at govt. level not everyone is clean. They all have their > networkings. But what's new? > > The production of money, which didn't exist, in the financial system > and has led to the crisis the world is in, has led to how many > 'apologies' from bankers? Perhaps half a dozen? None from Dutch > bankers. How many in the US? All I hear is that they are reaping their > bonus millions again as they have done for years and years and years. > I happen to know that China has executed people who were skimming too > many yen into their own accounts. > (thank you for the link though!) We agree that no economic system is perfect and that there will always be biological criminals in government, the board rooms, and on the factory floor who lie, cheat and steal. But given my druthers I would rather be a a system that leans toward individual liberty than one that leans toward government coercion and control. There are always those who think they know what's best for others and are so sure of their righteousness that they force obedience. That's when it's time to revolt, as American colonists did in 1776.. Platt: > One ad hominem attack deserves another. > > Andre: > Where/when did I attack you ad hominemly? By saying I was narrow-minded, unable to see your enlightened way.. > Platt: > Likewise I find it difficult to reconcile your socialist ideology with the > MOQ since nothing is more static than central government control of > human behavior, no matter what the good intentions. > > Andre: > If you interpret my concern for inorganic/organic/social/intellectual > PoV's, by e.g. designating these as, things, products, commodities, > consumers,patients,economic units,citizens,employes,employers, > customers,clients,etc,etc, to name but a few, and thereby losing sight > of the 'human being as an expression of morality' aspect...as > pertaining to a 'socialist ideology' I plead guilty but I also dislike > 'ists' and 'isms'. I'm not sure what all that means since Pirsig says all the universe, not just humans, are expressions of morality. As for "ists" and "isms" they are handy shortcuts in identifying where a person or policy fits in the big scheme of things. > As for government intervention to control some forms of human > behaviour, no matter what the good intentions ( whether these are the > govt's good intention or the individual's good intention),...through > the courts, judiciary,democracy, trial by jury etc etc, that is a > morally acceptable advance don't you think? Yes, except democracy unfettered can lead to disastrous consequences as a lynch mob testifies. That's why the U.S. was set up as a republic with checks and balances between governmental powers and constitutional guarantees of individual liberty -- an intellectually constructed system of governance on a moral basis I'd say. All the best, Platt Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
