Nice post.
On Jan 9, 2010, at 1:18 AM, Andre Broersen wrote: > Steve to Andre: > Where do you find this "true MOQ sense" of the word metaphysics? > > Andre: > Well Steve, to be pedantic, these were Bodvar’s words and I understand > his words to mean that the description of reality given by Pirsig is > the most accurate description possible without falling into SOM > distinctions and arguments. As I quoted him (Bodvar), merely naming DQ > does that make DQ any less real? > > Steve: > Everything that Pirsig writes on the subject takes a particular > metaphysics to be one possible intellectual construction among an > infinite possibility for descriptions of Quality. > > In what sense is your idea of the "true MOQ sense" the true MOQ sense > of what the "true MOQ" says? I can't tell what you could mean by this > phrase and what you could mean by "the MOQ" if MOQ is not synonymous > with the philosophy of Robert M Pirsig as outlined in Lila and ZAMM. > > Andre: > Pirsig himself has stated that his philosophy (the MoQ) is more > encompassing, inclusive and has far more explanatory power than > everything that has gone before...i.e.SOM in all its variations and > guises. Northrop continually criticises philosophies on the basis of > confusing the’ ought’ with the’ is’. Most philosophies do not reflect > what ‘is’ but the way things ‘ought to be’/ or ‘should be’ and upon > this basis analyse ‘reality’ and project (future) ways of thinking and > acting. (Marx’s dialectical materialism, based on Hegel, Fichte and > its source, Kant is a [disastrous] case in point. > Actually, the MoQ is the first metaphysics I have come across to > reflect the ‘is’ as opposed to the ‘ought’. And in this sense I > understand Pirsig’s own caution that his MoQ is not a quick fix > programme that will solve all moral conflicts in this world overnight. > It merely clarifies and orders Reality within a moral, evolutionary > framework i.e. DQ/SQ. > > Steve: > In the MOQ, "true statements about reality" are not to be confused > with Quality itself and there is not just one true statement to be > made about reality... > > Andre: > Agree, all statements referring to the inorganic, organic, social and > intellectual level are provisional. > > Steve: > You've painted Bo as the true believer, as some sort of MOQ > fundamentalist--an odd sort of fundamentalist who does not see the > actual text of what Pirsig wrote in inventing his MOQ as having much > to do with the MOQ--as if Bo is the one who is being the most faithful > to Pirsig's MOQ while also claiming that Pirsig himself has the MOQ > all wrong. This is absurd. > > Andre: > Indeed I have painted Bodvar as a forceful, committed and passionate > follower of Quality. The truth of his interpretation of the MoQ > remains provisional. All I can gather from his arguments and evidence > is that it makes sense. > I would not claim, and doubt if Bodvar actually says this, that Pirsig > has his own MoQ ‘all wrong’. What I do detect (and Bodvar has been at > this much longer than I have) is that Pirsig’s statements are, at > times, ambiguous ( which is okay) confusing ( which is sort of okay) > and contradictory ( which is not very helpful...to wit: the > intellectual level). > > And then, amongst others, Krimel comes along with his ideas about this > level, John has other ideas, Bodvar has his ideas...it seems we all > have our own ideas about this. The test is to match them against the > words and consistency of Pirsig’s own arguments and definitions. And, > to be fair, in the end we use our own experience of Quality as we > integrate them within the static PoV’s we call our own, which leads to > a further diversification and richness of everything else. > > Steve: > What do you think it means to commit yourself to the MOQ? > > Andre: > To change, in as many ways that I can experience, a SOM steeped past > into a MoQ immersed now. > > Cheers, > Andre > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ _______________________________________________________________________ Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
