Hi Arlo, Craig, Andre, ..., I've been following this and thought I'd jump in since the chances of my not doing so decreased with time.
Chance can be a useful concept to describe how one sees the universe. The issue when discussing it, is that you can't point to it. Where does chance reside, is it under a rock someplace? In the same way, where does chance begin and where does it end? If we can predict, does that mean that chance is not involved? Is it a matter of how well we can predict? The chances of us dying are pretty high based on statistics, does that mean that chance is taken out of that situation? The chances of a coin toss landing heads or tails can be calculated, but to do so requires the tosser to not have influence on its toss. That removal of the observer from the situation is impossible. Quantum mechanics would say that by observing something we influence it, so chance is taken out of everything we observe. If I toss a coin, where does chance come in? Is it while it is turning over in the air, or is that preordained by the tosser and other physical things? Does chance come in on our choice of how high and fast to spin the coin? Let's say we change our minds twelve times on how to toss it, is it by chance that we settle on the twelfth one, or is that free will? What is making the decision on how to toss the coin, chance? In my opinion, chance exists in every moment of everything, or it does not exist at all. I prefer the former. So where does free will come in? The free will comes in on how we view the situation, what our attitude is as observer. It is that area of free will which then drives the direction of the experience of Chance. IMHO, of course. Mark [Arlo] > Its relevance is that it must be so. [Craig, previously] > Owww. The old "it must be so argument". The 2nd most irrefutable argument, > next to "you can't have a Red Ryder BB gun because you'll put your eye out!" [Arlo] Bad rhetoric [Craig] But accurate quotation. This has been a good exchange--worthy of summary in the archives. Although I can't think of any argument for your position, it is one that must be considered. Perhaps Krimel (the chance expert) or Andre (who possibly has another viewpoint) can further the exchange. I do wonder about determining the probability of my choosing broccoli ice cream. What if I can't think of a single possible instance where I would freely choose it over vanilla ice cream? Why would anyone assign it any non-zero probability? Because I'm always freely choosing vanilla??? What would Wittgenstein say? [Andre] > is this freedom in the MoQ sense? What is the distinction you're making between freedom "in the MoQ sense" & some other (give examples)? . [Andre] > Is it even freedom of choice? I can see a variety of cases: 1) You are offered broccoli ice cream at $1 or vanilla at $2, but you have only $1. 2) you prefer vanilla but it gives you a rash. 3) you prefer vanilla but that means the other person is stuck with broccoli. 4) you really want chocolate. 5) you are bribed to take broccoli. 6) you are warned not to take vanilla. 7) there are no known bad consequences or cost to you in taking either vanilla or broccoli, there is plenty of each for everyone, you have a reasonable expectation as to how the vanilla and the broccoli each will taste, you've made no agreement constraining your choice, you like either vanilla or broccoli (or both), and so on. I think 7) is the case Arlo & I are considering. Craig Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
