Mary to John: I think you can draw the upper boundary of intellectual patterning at the point where the subject meets the object - where the subjective rubber meets the objective road. I think the limit of the intellectual level stops at the point where we try to conceptualize anything in terms other than subjects and objects. This is why I am almost 99% in Bodvar's Intellectual Level = SOM camp at this point. Give me one example where you are able to conceptualize anything without presupposing a viewer and a viewed and I will probably be able to say that is an example of transcending the Intellectual Level to enter the realm of pre-intellectual awareness - otherwise known as Quality. What do you think?
Andre: Hi Mary and John, The 'one example' are too many... Phaedrus' experience with the Indians, the entire Oriental philosophical tradition where direct experience was accepted, unequivocally and intellectual patterning took place, instead of (in the West) theoretical postulates were formed from which intellectual patterning took place etc etc.(typical scientific S/O divisions) Bodvar argues that this (Oriental,direct experience) approach is 'wooly' that in some way 'the Orient' MUST have gone through some sort of S/O stage...and even worse that because they appear not to have 'gone through' the Western SOM stage they are somehow wanting, lacking...( wooly) not ready for the big Quality breakthrough, the big Quality appreciation. This is quite a claim to make and, in my view very short sighted. You also say that: 'I think you can draw the upper boundary of intellectual patterning at the point where the subject meets the object - where the subjective rubber meets the objective road. I really like the analogy but why should this herald the 'upper boundary' of the intellectual level? The intellectual level holds tools...sign manipulation tools. Mr. Pirsig has not only expanded the tools but also the signs. 'Transcending the intellectual level' ...what does that mean? Like shutting it out for a while...experience something... and then return to it to linguistically convey your experience? Imho What do you think? Andre Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
