Thanks for the references Ian. I stand corrected. The intellectual top-down formation of American society was not from the immigrants pre-formed ideas. Good point.
I agree completely. I am going to snip part of this and repost it to a D-Q discussion which really needs it right now. gratefully, John On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 4:05 AM, Ian MacLean <[email protected]> wrote: > "And yet, although Jefferson called this doctrine of social equality > "self-evident," it is not at all self-evident. ...There's no nation in > Europe that doesn't trace its history to a time when it was "self-evident" > that all men are created unequal. ...The idea that 'all men are created > equal" is a gift to the world from the American Indian." > -end of Ch. 3, Lila > > "Phaedrus had found a small dog-eared Yankee magazine, thumbed through it, > and stopped on a brief account by Cathie Slater Spence entitled, "In Search > of the April Fool." > It was about a child prodigy who had possibly the highest > intelligence ever observed, and who in his later life went nowhere. ...[Dan] > Mahony has spent the last ten years looking into Sidis's work. in one dusty > attic, he found a bulky manuscript called 'The Tribes and the States' in > which Sidis argues persuasively that the New England political system was > profoundly influenced by the democratic federation of the Penacook Indians." > -end of Ch. 4, Lila > > "There are certain definite departures from the common and well-known > points of view regarding America and its past that the reader will notice. > At the opening, it is obvious that the beginnings of American history are > sought not in Europe but here in America, among the peoples who originally > inhabited this country, and the characteristics of the various parts of the > country are treated as directly traceable to the varying characteristics and > customs of the early tribes in the same regions. The tribes of Indians are > considered, not as savages or barbarians who created nothing of importance, > but as the real founders of the best and most important parts of modern > American institutions: federation, democracy, postal service, written > constitutions, the idea of individual rights, are among the many things > which, according to this version of history, modern America owes to its red > predecessors. And, as a corollary, the coming of the white people to > America, which, from the standard point of view, starting American history > in Europe, was a series of discoveries, is here treated as a series of > invasions from Europe by a barbarous people who understood nothing of > American institutions, but who, in the very process of overrunning the > continent, acquired, at least partially, many of the ways of doing things > that they found on this side of the ocean, and civilized themselves, and > even their original home countries, in the process." > -EDITOR'S INTRODUCTION > The Tribes and the States > W. J. Sidis > http://www.sidis.net/TSIntro.htm > > "But, among the Penacook peoples, there was nothing known which could even > remotely correspond to, or give an inkling of, any division of caste, class, > or rank--probably the only completely democratic governments that ever > existed in the history of the world. This was a true democracy and equality > which might well prepare their country (now known as New England) for being, > at all times down to the present, the cradle of the spirit of liberty....We > have seen that the nations of the northeastern part of North America had > attained a degree of liberty and democracy such as no other people have ever > reached, and which was most irreconcilably opposed to the monarchical and > aristocratic institutions brought from Europe by the white invaders. ...An > Onondaga by the name of Daganoweda, living near where is at present located > the city of Syracuse, had noticed this everlasting alternation of peace and > war, and thought something ought to be done about it. His habits of dreaming > and meditating, and doing nothing had resulted in his being looked down on > as a dreamer, if not slightly insane; but still he persisted with his > dreaming. As he meditated over the fact that the frequent peace conferences > could stop wars, but that the wars returned when the peace conferences went > home, he thought that those five neighboring and related nations, which > should by rights be brothers instead of enemies, could possibly be kept at > peace if only the peace conference could be made a permanent organization. > This idea is a simple one after it has been in practice four hundred > years; but only a visionary like Daganoweda could have originated a plan > which, at the time, seemed so impossible and bizarre. And this idea was a > step in advance such as would be difficult to parallel in the entire world's > history of social and civil organization. Daganoweda's plan--the permanent > peace conference governing the relations of several independent units--has > since come to be known as Federation, and its importance can hardly be > exaggerated. It was distinctly American in origin, and America has always > remained its home, attempts at imitating it elsewhere having almost > invariably been unsuccessful." > -excerpted from Ch. 2 and 4 > The Tribes and the States > W. J. Sidis > http://www.sidis.net/TSContents.htm > > > On Jan 30, 2010, at 8:42 AM, John Carl wrote: > > > > I think your definition of level is off. Bottom-up creation doesn't make > > any sense. Take the founders of America - as a society. The social > > patterns created were a reflection of intellectual ideas. It's not like > a > > bunch of people showed up on New England's shore and said, "hey, let's > try > > the idea of freedom". What happened was that the people who had in their > > being an intellectual pattern of a free society had to take that idea > over > > the sea and make it happen. > > > > Likewise, biologically babies come from a social arrangement and > inorganic > > matter is reformulated and patterned creatively by life. I know it's > been > > taught in schools and on this forum that complexity arises from > randomness, > > but I'm hoping that some people can see the ridiculousness of the > MorOnist > > cult and rise above by getting pulled from above. > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
