Hi Dee Tee.
7 Feb.
Bo before:
> > It's INTELLIGENCE you speak about. Intellect is no biological or
> > social anything, it's a STATIC LEVEL, when will you realize that?
> > There weren't any intellect before the level as little as there were
> > life before the biological level Get it?
Dee Tee:
> No, it is not INTELLIGENCE I speak about it is INTELLECT and there is
> no INTELLECT level. There is however an INTELLECTUAL level and it was
> created by the INTELLECT.
I'm not able to see the big difference. Of Course the intellectual level
arrived the moment an intellectual pattern formed and this were
formed by some "too hot to handle" social pattern that left home. Not
any pre-whatever intellect, this is MOQ heresy.
> Your failure to understand or accept that intelligence, intellect and
> intellectual are three different words with three different meanings is
> what I don't get. If RMP were here he wouldn't get it either. He only
> says this in about a 100 different ways in Lila. But you're a ZaMM guy,
> I forgot.
Huh? I was the one who pointed to the danger of confusing
intelligence and the 4th. level, while you now introduce an equally
dangerous distinction between between intellect and the intellectual
level.
> Your damn right I am. Because your interpretation wrong, has been so
> since the start, is confusing an already confusing issue, and if
> integrated into MoQ would prove fatal to an already unstable system.
> You need to paste this on a wall and stay there staring at it until
> you do get it !
[Lila pg 140] "Within this evolutionary relationship it is
possible to see that intellect has functions that predate
science and philosophy. The intellect's evolutionary purpose
has never been to discover an ultimate meaning of the
universe. That is a relatively recent fad. Its historical purpose
has been to help a society find food, detect danger, and
defeat enemies. It can do this well or poorly, depending on the
CONCEPTS IT INVENTS for this purpose"
I am bound to lose, I see it, like all who have been fighting two-front
wars, still I'm aghast how Pirsig alternates between the faulty and the
correct interpretation.Your exploiting the messy quotes and
overlooking the correct ones can't be helped. The above is a clear
example of the said intelligence-intellect mess. It's plain that intellect
didn't start out as the search for "an ultimate meaning of the
universe", meaning is not part of intellect's repertoire, yet its
objectivity eventually lead to science and eventually to physics and its
search for universe's ultimate workings.
> And the "concept OR IDEA OR PATTERN OF VALUE [that the intellect]
> INVENTS" after thousands of years of evolution, according to the MoQ
> and RMP, " says intellect is a higher level of evolution than society;
> therefore, it is a more moral level than society" Lila pg 137
I don't have LILA on this machine and am not sure what is Thomas
and what is Pirsig here. That the intellectual level is the highest is
plain, but the rest sounds like some of Lila's Child's painful
annotations.
> Now if you can explain to me how any "intellect" invents something
> before it exists, as you have claimed over and over, I will indeed
> accept your position.
An important MOQ tenet is that the levels came to be by DQ "riding"
some dynamic pattern of the parent level to a new freedom that
immediately turned into a new - yet higher - static level. Regrettably
he only went into details regarding the inorganic-biological transition
and did not treat the biological-social at all and became very
ambiguous regarding the social-intellectual. The one which is so
eloquently described in ZAMM and would have been the easiest, but
thanks to the mysterious intelligence-intellect ... alas.
> TO RECAP:
> THE INTELLECT PREDATES SCIENCE AND PHILOSOPHY.
"The intellect", I don't accept this odd entity. Intellect started with the
intellectual level and that was instigated by the Greek philosophers in
Western hemisphere and by the Indian philosophers in the Eastern
hemisphere. Science is a fallout of intellect.
> THE INTELLECT INVENTS IDEAS. GET IT?
Yes, with Plato "ideas" were invented as the real part of the new
level's appearance/reality dichotomy. By and by it all shifted 180
degrees and ideas became mind patterns and as such the subjective
illusory - "appearance" - part of the original dichotomy. Of course it's
all humbug: ideas contains the material world and ideas aren't
possible without the material world, that's SOM's monster-platypus.
> SOME, BUT NOT ALL, IDEAS MAY RISE TO THE INTELLECTUAL LEVEL. AND THOSE
> FEW IDEAS THAT SURVIVE THE RARIFIED AIR UP THERE ARE THE GOOD ONES.
> UNTIL BETTER ONES COMES ALONG.
This is the SOMish mind-intellect that has ideas as patterns - SOM
one idea the MOQ another. How can the MOQ ever escape intellect?
This variety at once falls victim for the SOM paradoxes that the
MOQ was meant to dissolve: I wish philosophy would make it across
the Atlantic.
> But, this is were we are,have been for years,
"Now we¹ve a real intellectual impasse. Our reason, which is
supposed to make things more intelligible, seems to be
making them less intelligible, and when reason thus defeats
its own purpose something has to be changed in the structure
of our reason itself." ZaMM pg 75
Of course! ZAMM was all about demonstrating intellect's (SOM
there) many impasses ( paradoxes) and what the MOQ so elegantly
dissolves had Pirsig continued Phaedrus' good work of identifying
SOM and calling it the "intellectual" part of his proto-moq , but
messed thoroughly up by introducing SOM's "mind-intellect".
> ...and most likely will remain.
Not if you and the rest came to your senses, but it's all past the
prestige point of no return.
Bodvar
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