Horse
23 Feb. you neighed (couldn't resist ;)
Bo before:
> > Whatever you think of my SOL the MOQ as an intellectual pattern is
> > untenable.
[Horse]
> Not according to Robert Pirsig whose work you are continuing to
> mangle. It's very simple - a metaphysics IS an intellectual pattern of
> value.
The "value" solely belongs to the MOQ, nowhere does Aristotle say
that "metaphysics is an intellectual pattern of value" and Pirsig started
the argument [for a new wold view which would overthrow the old
SOM world view] all correctly by pointing to the fact that "..no one can
avoid metaphysics", meaning that wherever anthropologists went
people had an explanation of existence, and by this it's plain that Pirsig
intended the term to mean something immensely wider than the article
that SOM's instigator coined. But trust Pirsig to open along this correct
line for suddenly to change into "writing metaphysics" in the
Aristotelian sense of "a subjective theory" which was playing straight
into SOM's hands.
> [Horse]
> Only in your head Bo. A metaphysics is an Intellectual Pattern of
> Value and exists quite comfortably at the Intellectual level.
Well, if you want to reject Pirsig's correct "container logic", who am I to
stop you.
"You can't have Box "A" contain within itself Box "B," which in
turn contains Box "A." That's whacko." (By courtesy of Pirsig)
[Horse]
> Because Bodvar is wrong which is what Pirsig has said on a number of
> occasions.
You sound like DMB. Pirsig has said many things and aren't we to
extract what fits the deepest meaning of the MOQ and ignore what
perpetuates SOM? As said before: if the MOQ is an intellectual pattern
what is NOT intellectual patterns? After all the MOQ is the Quality
Reality. If not we are back in the Aristotelian - i.e. SOM - where there
is a reality "out there" that we "in here" make theories about. The fact
that this ineffable reality now is called Quality and the MOQ is only
one among an unending number of possible Q-hypotheses does not
alter a thing. Compare it to ZAMM
He coined a law intended to have the humor of a Parkinson's
law that ``The number of rational hypotheses that can explain
any given phenomenon is infinite.'' It pleased him never to run
out of hypotheses. Even when his perimental work seemed
dead-end in every conceivable way, he knew that if he just sat
down and muddled about it long enough, sure enough, another
hypothesis would come along. And it always did. It was only
months after he had coined the law that he began to have
some doubts about the humor or benefits of it. If true, that law
is not a minor flaw in scientific reasoning. The law is
completely nihilistic. It is a catastrophic logical disproof of the
general validity of all scientific method!
The above is one aspect of SOM's many flaws which would put young
P. on the search for an escape from, and do you see the likeness with
the MOQ "just one of an infinite number of possible 'moqs'"? Why
lapse back into the problem that the MOQ was supposed to be a relief
from?
> [Horse]
> There you go again - Pirsig is an idiot because he doesn't agree with
> Bo. In fact everyone who doesn't agree is either a fool or an idiot
> according to Bo. Perhaps symbol manipulation is a difficult concept
> for you Bo but for most of us it is not problematic. And your
> continued denigration of non-western intellect is risible.
I know that you and DMB see the SOL as a personal attack on RMP
and that you want protect him and that's noble, but I feel I have to
protect the MOQ against many of Pirsig's own statements. And the
MOQ as an intellectual pattern robs it of all power. DMB has long since
stopped to speak about the MOQ and you have never tried, just
because your "orthodox" version is impotent.
[Horse]
> Only if you first assume that the Intellectual Level is SOM. If you
> don't then there is no problem.
Did you notice Pirsig's about the "Early books of the Bible"?
But if one studies the early books of the Bible or if one studies
the sayings of primitive tribes today, the intellectual level is
conspicuously absent. The world is ruled by Gods who follow
social and biological patterns and nothing else.
I'f it is not SOM which is missing, what is? And this is typical, the SOL
pops up all over the place, but when I asked about it ... alas..
Bodvar
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