That individual conscious awareness would seem to be what John meant by his phrase "experiences itself as experience."
On Mar 19, 2010, at 5:17 AM, MarshaV wrote: > John & Arlo, > > > Hmmmm. I seem to have ignored the most difficult-to-explain aspect of the > individual, individual conscious awareness. It's still does not represent, > from > my point-of-view, an inherently existing, independent self, 'I', whatever,,, > but > it does seem to be clearly proprietary. > > > Marsha > > > On Mar 18, 2010, at 4:33 PM, MarshaV wrote: > >> >> Hi Arlo, >> >> You make some great points, and I most definitely do not want to turn this >> into a political debate. >> Well, then the point I want to make to Ham is that I can agree with him >> sometimes when he says >> 'You know the YOU exist.', if by YOU he means in the individual, unique >> sensory sense. >> >> Thanks. >> >> >> Marsha >> >> >> >> >> On Mar 18, 2010, at 3:55 PM, Arlo Bensinger wrote: >> >>> [Marsha] >>> I've often wanted to agree with Platt and Ham about the individual, but I >>> also am convinced of the Buddhist's no-self. >>> >>> [Arlo] >>> Platt and Ham remain trapped by the political dichotomy they can't see >>> past. To them its an absolute "either-or". Either there is nothing but the >>> Supremacy of the Glorious Individual, or there is nothing but the Evil >>> Collective. This is there own hang-up, I would not let it bog *you* down. >>> >>> Platt and Ham are correct in that each "human individual" has, by virtue of >>> it's biological boundedness, a unique sensory trajectory as it experiences >>> "the world". There is little doubt of this. The sensory information your >>> eyes transmit to your brain is unique to your biologically-bound >>> perspective in the cosmos. >>> >>> And as far as that goes, they are correct. Where they fail is in >>> recognizing that this is only half of what makes us "us". The other half is >>> social, and derives as the biological being appropriates a social reality, >>> a "collective consciousness" of narratives, stories, dialogues, metaphors, >>> art, song, dance, roles, understandings and so on. >>> >>> It is this meeting of the unique biological-bounded sensory experience and >>> its encoding via a socially-bound symbolic milieu that informs that "we" >>> are. >>> >>> This, I take it, is exactly what Pirsig meant by restating Descartes dictum >>> as "20th century French culture exists, therefore I think, therefore I am." >>> >>> Thus there is no "self" in any objectivist sense at all. But it does hold >>> pragmatic value to us, which is why it persists. >>> >>> My advice is not to get bungeed up by the individual-collectivist strawman. >>> Like all patterns, an "individual" or "collective" is merely a matter of >>> focus. And as your focus shifts up and down, this changes accordingly. >>> Elevating either over of the other is a political cup-trick. >>> >>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> >> >> >> ___ >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > ___ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
