Horse, You said,
> Penrose's arguments (especially those in "The Emperors New Mind" - the one that specifically targets AI) were unravelled and dismissed a long time ago - I read it when it came out and thought it was a pretty poor read. and it seemed that I threw in the towel myself with: I can see that this argument is not going to go my way at all. :-) But I'm pretty interested in the gist of why you think Penrose is wrong. But then I got to think while I was driving, and I changed my mind. Or rather, in spite of the unlikelihood of the argument "going my way", I wish to pursue it anyway. Despite your superior expertise, I think you're wrong. Of course, we have to define exactly what we're talking about Of course AI is possible. It's more than possible, it's actual. Artificial intelligence is all around us. I often wear a wrist calculator watch because they're very handy on the job. Especially if you can get one with a sq root function! The ability to calculate quickly that we term "intelligence", is not only possible, its factual. Artificial intellect, however, is another story entirely. And here I need make no reference to Penrose, it is Pryor's logical argument derived from the Q'm" with which you must contend. For thereby, there is only one way to attain intellectual status, and that is by encompassing the totality of the inorganic, biological and most importantly, social, ways of being. For even as biological life comes to naught with a dearth of necessary inorganic "patterns" upon which to feed, and Social patterns die soon when their biological substance subsists, and all intellectual patterns die when no social support is given them, so it is and always must be, epistemologically speaking that you can't create intellectual patterning from inorganic matter and pure intellectual ideas. For intellect is born of self / other dichotomy nurtured into existence with maternal attention and biological support. There's no way any increase of mere intelligence is going to re-create that process which is the heart of autonomous self-dom, self-realization or value-cognizance. However you wanna spell it, call it consciousness, call it "I and I" for all "I" care. It comes only through this social creation called infant nurture, coupled with biological analogues of felt pain and desire. The whole body is a brain, when it comes down to our deepest understandings, and a brain hooked up to an environmental matrix that can't be copied by algorithm, program or artificial replication. And all the expertise in the world will not obviate this fundamental truth. So there. Cheers, John Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
