Hi Dave T.
28 Apr. :
DMB had said:
> > The distinction Pirsig makes is a modification of the old
> > distinction between mythos and logos. Roughly, that's the difference
> > between myth and logic. For those who really want to understand what
> > the social level is all about Pirsig recommends a giant four volume
> > set on world mythology, namely Joseph Campbell's "The Masks of God".
> > It's awesome.
Bo says:
Agreement on Campbell, but I'd say the difference is between myth
and objective knowledge or Truth, "Logic" (intelligence) can be used
for too many purposes, to see gods-goddesses in the heavenly bodies,
to construct crystal spheres ...etc.. Anyway, in moqspeak it's the
social/intellectual distinction. (ZAMM page 366)
Early Greek philosophy represented the first conscious search
for what was imperishable in the affairs of men. Up to then
what was imperishable was within the domain of the Gods, the
myths. But now, as a result of the growing impartiality of the
Greeks to the world around them, there was an increasing
power of abstraction which permitted them to regard the old
Greek mythos not as revealed truth but as imaginative
creations of art. This consciousness, which had never existed
anywhere before in the world, spelled a whole new level of
transcendence for the Greek civilization.
DT:
> I'm rereading "A History of God-The 4000 year Quest of Judaism,
> Christianity, and Islam" by Karen Armstrong and would also recommend
> it for insight into the intertwining, misunderstanding, and misuse of
> both mythos and logos by these religions. She wryly starts her tale
> with "In the beginning..." this book is not about God per se but
> about the evolution of man's ideas about gods. In particular, these
> three religions ideas, but she ties them into both Hindu and Buddhist
> thought. It's interesting that as Judaism and Christianity mingle with
> Greek thought both of them adapt mythos to mean all the "God talk and
> practices" of the pagan's other gods, while logos is the Word of their
> one true God. "Logos" later evolves, in some branches of Christianity,
> to mean the transforming of the Word into the flesh through Jesus as
> Jon recounted in his recent religious rants.
Karen Armstrong has it right. I have on several occasions "lectured"
how the Greek "logos" (SOM or the 4th. level) influenced Jesus by way
of the Romans and his teachings became a first intellectual attempt on
the social mythological Semitic monotheism. It could not make a dent
there, rather peeled off as a sect and the rest is history. Medieval
Times looks like a return to mythos yet Greek logos continued to
influence Christendom. the most prominent feature the soul/body
distinction. Then the Renaissance and the return of Logos and its
influence.
> Armstrong says," Historical monotheism was not originally mystical....
> The prophets (Abraham through Muhammad) had declared war on mythology:
More agreement, Jewish monotheism arrived about the same time as
the Greek "war on on mythology" (there may have been centuries - a
millennium perhaps - before it reached the philosophic quest for
immortal principles) but while the Greek movement turned into a war
on all god-run myths the Jewish turned into the ultimate such.
And yes, Islam took over the Semitic relay pin after the Jews had
been expelled, and is just as impervious to logos as Judaism.
> their God was active in history and in current political events rather
> than in the primordial, sacred time of myth. When monotheists turned
> to mysticism, however, mythology reasserted itself as the chief
> vehicle of religious experience."
The "active God" continued in Christendom, albeit not quite as
"xenophilic" as in Judaism where He had signed a pact with the Jews,
but still, in Europe every social order referred to God ("Gott Mit Uns")
as a guarantor for kings and nobility, national states and what not. But
logos loomed larger and larger and by now it dominates the Western
World, why the Islamists look upon "our" values as evil and must be
prevented from influencing their world.
DT:
> Now, 4007 years later, the meaning mythos and logos are so interwoven
> with the evolution of the monotheistic religions that their use almost
> guarantees misinterpretation.
But the MOQ has unveiled the correct context.
Bodvar.
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