Ian, That may be. I would like to read more. He seems like not only an interesting thinker, but a very nice man. But at this point he does seem to consider the brain as something 'real'.
I have to confess, though, I do not share his way of loving math. I have a tendency to want to rip those pages dealing with numbers, out of the book with my teeth, shake them back and forth, and toss them out of my nest, with a Humpf! - I have some lectures coming up concerning the wonders of mathematical thinking. Maybe the lectures will seduce me into reconsidering Hofstadter's point-of-view. I always loved math, but... Marsha On Jun 1, 2010, at 3:26 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: > Hi Marsha, that's why I like Hofstadter ... you said > > "He does plenty of talking about patterns, and I did get a little > hopeful, but no he's a materialist. One wants to ask him why wouldn't > he think the same patterns that create the self, creates objects." > > I believe he does think that too. It's just not the subject of the > book you are currently reading. > > Ian > > On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 5:42 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> Hi Platt, >> >> Yes, it does seem that way. He does plenty of talking about patterns, and >> I did get a little hopeful, but no he's a materialist. One wants to ask him >> why >> wouldn't he think the same patterns that create the self, creates objects. >> Seems >> like an obvious consideration. >> >> Wonder what it will take? But you are correct, it is too bad. >> >> >> Marsha >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On May 31, 2010, at 11:58 AM, Platt Holden wrote: >> >>> Hi Marsha, >>> >>> Like most academics, Hofstadter buys into SOM hook, line and sinker. Too >>> bad, really. >>> >>> Platt >>> >>> On Mon, May 31, 2010 at 6:50 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> "What would make a human brain a candidate for housing a loop of >>>> self-representation? Why would a fly brain or a mosquito brain not be just >>>> as valid a candidate? Why, for that matter, not a bacterium, an ovum, a >>>> sperm, a virus, a tomato plant, a tomato, or a pencil? The answer should >>>> be >>>> clear: a human brain is a representational system that knows no bounds in >>>> terms of the extensibility or flexibility of its categories. A mosquito >>>> brain, by contrast, is a tiny representational system that contains >>>> practically no categories at all, never mind being flexible and extensible. >>>> Very small representational systems, such as those of bacteria, ova, >>>> sperms, plants, thermostats, and so forth, do not enjoy the luxury of >>>> self-representation. And a tomato and a pencil are not representational >>>> systems at all, so for them, the story ends right there (sorry, little >>>> tomato! sorry, little pencil!). >>>> "So a human brain is a strong candidate for having the potential of >>>> rich perceptual feedback, and thus rich self-reresentation. But what kinds >>>> of perceptual cycles do we get involved in? We begin life with the most >>>> elementary sorts of feedback about ourselves, which stimulate us to >>>> formulate categories for our most obvious body parts, and building on this >>>> basic pedestal, we soon develop a sense for our bodies as flexible physical >>>> objects. In the meantime, as we receive rewards for various actions and >>>> punishments for others, we begin to develop a more abstract sense of "good" >>>> and "bad", as well as notions of guilt and pride, and our sense of >>>> ourselves >>>> as abstract entities that have the power to decide to make things happen >>>> (such as continuing to run up a steep hill even though our legs are begging >>>> us to just walk) begins to take root. >>>> "It is crucial to our young lives that we hone our developing >>>> self-symbol as precisely as possible. We want (and need) to find out where >>>> we belong in all sorts of social hierarchies and classes, and sometimes, >>>> even if we don't want to know thee things, we find out anyway. For >>>> instance, we are all told, early on, that we are "cute"; in some of us, >>>> however, this message is reinforced far more strongly than in others. In >>>> this manner, each of us comes to realize that we are "good-looking" or >>>> "gullible" or "cheeky" or "shy" or "spoiled" or "funny" or "lazy" or >>>> "original", or whatever. Dozens of such labels and concepts accrete to our >>>> growing self-symbols. >>>> "As we go through thousands of experiences large and small, our >>>> representation of these experiences likewise accrete to our self-symbols. >>>> Of course a memory of a visit to the Grand Canyon, say, is attached not >>>> only to our self-symbol but to many other symbols in our brains, but our >>>> self-symbol is enriched and rendered more complex by this attachment." >>>> (Hofstadter, Douglas,'I Am A Strange Loop', pp.182-183) >>>> >>>> --- >>>> >>>> A extremely interesting explanation of self-forming, yet ALL in this >>>> explanation are patterns and analogs including the concept of a "human >>>> brain" (sorry little marsha). >>>> >>>> >>>> Does the concept 'dna' as a pattern have any more substance for the >>>> biologist than for the police officer? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ___ >>>> >>>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> >> >> >> ___ >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
