[Mary]
You have this backwards. Some years ago after the fall of the USSR,
it became national news in America that Ukrainian's objected to
having their nation referred to as "The Ukraine".
[Arlo]
Well.. oooookay... I was taking your example to be about any "nation"
per se, like "THE France" or "THE Japan". Thanks for the
geo-political information on the region, but that's really irrelevant.
The point is that defining a geographic region as "THE [country X]"
is, for larger purposes, an act of authority (typically military).
France's border with Germany is defined by the respective
military-political authorities of these nations, and has nothing
really do to with what you or I or someone living in the
border-region may "want" or think where "France" ends and "Germany" begins.
The "THE" is, then, an authoritative decree. But even the simplest of
observations shows that its often "fuzzy" at the borders, and thus
the "THE" is mere authoritative convention.
Pirsig mentions he uses "THE metaphysics of Quality says..." as a
narrative placeholder for "I, Robert Pirsig, says..." and I think
when used this way leads to little problem or absurdity. When Bo and
Pirsig conflict over what "THE metaphysics of Quality says", using
this language, it implies an external "metaphysics of Quality" over
which Pirsig and Bo claim to be speaking for. To me, Mary, this is absurd.
Bo and Pirsig do not conflict over what "THE metaphysics of Quality
says", the conflict over what THEY say. Pirsig clearly sees nothing
in his ideas that would lead to the SOL conclusion, and he speaks for
HIS ideas. Bo has disagreed with Pirsig, and has offered HIS ideas of
how "A" metaphysics of Quality could be strengthened.
[Mary]
At the Social Level, 'lines on a map' are extremely important, and
yes, there is 'one true Ukraine',
[Arlo]
Maps are certainly important on the social and intellectual levels,
but tell me who defines the "one true Ukraine"? An army? You? Someone
living there? How is disagreement settled? Does the military have the
final say?
[Mary]
Actually, I think nothing of the sort, but since you don't seem too
terribly interested in what I think, but instead want to use what you
'think I think' as a platform to express what _you_ think, I feel a
little bit used.
[Arlo]
Like the other SOLists, you make these objections but offer nothing
in return but evasions and tangents. I've asked these questions
clearly, several times, and even with your latest reply am getting no
straight answers. If I imply anything, its because you have not given
me anything else to go on. You think YOU feel used, well, Mary, I
feel tired of the typical and continued evasions, dishonesties and
distortions.
Look, Mary, I am NOT making any comments here whatsoever about the
SOL/SIM/SOLAQI. I've stated elsewhere I find no value in this
revision, but I have always supported Bo's ability to offering an
alternative view than Pirsig's. But that is all that this has become,
a grab for authoritative legitimacy, a effort to say "Pirsig
orginated this" or "Pirsig really meant to say this, if only he
wasn't too cowardly or too ignorant of his own ideas to do so".
And, as this latest post from you more or less confirms, I think the
big hang-up among the SOLites, the impetus to see only the need for
authoritative legitimacy, derives from an inability to see that there
is no "THE MOQ", but "A" MOQ that is Pirsig's ideas and "A" MOQ that
is Bo's critical revision.
[Mary quotes Pirsig]
If something is wrong there's a good chance that the error isn't in
what he thought but in my reconstruction of it, and a better
reconstruction can later be found.
[Arlo]
Okay. Bo's metaphysics is a "reconstruction" of Pirsig's ideas. Fair
enough. I have no problem with this. Seems to me to be valid ground.
But the point is that by foregrounding "THE", in this case assuming
there is but ONE MOQ that people tear down and rebuild, you totally
objectify "THE MOQ" into something apart from the ideas of the people
speaking. As I said, it turns THE MOQ into the elephant, and us the
blind men trying to interpret what "IT" is. Which gives Bo the
ability to claim that he alone has sight and has seen the elephant,
while even Pirsig stands there holding the trunk claiming its a snake.
And let me reask the question, why does there need to be "One True
MOQ". What is wrong with there being Pirsig's ideas and Bo's ideas
and your ideas and my ideas?
You know, saying this, I see a striking parallel between this and
"religion". I'm sure you can see it too. I'll expand on this later,
as its a biggie, but for now I'll just point to it.
[Mary]
Based on Pirsig's explanation of how his books came about above, no
one has any authority on this subject - least of all Pirsig.
[Arlo]
LEAST of all Pirsig??? Quite frankly I'm not even sure how to respond
to this. But, it does confirm you see the MOQ as some "external"
thingamabob "out there" and we are all just blind fools (Pirsig
apparently the blindest) trying to figure out what the hell this thing is.
This is a path to absurdity (you do realize you are citing Pirsig's
authority to support the claim that Pirsig is the least authoritative
person here... Alright, I am now thoroughly convinced the
SOL/SIM/SOLAQI is a product of muddied thinking).
[Arlo previously]
In other words, what do you think is wrong with saying "A metaphysics
of Quality that holds the intellectual level to SOM is better than A
metaphysics of Quality that considers SOM to be one on many
intellectual patterns"?
Does that not sum up your position? Why is it more important for you
to say instead "THE metaphysics of Quality holds the intellectual
level to SOM"?
[Mary]
Give it a rest. Too bad we are not speaking in Ukrainian which has
no articles.
[Arlo]
I can't say I am surprised you couldn't answer this. But I will make
a nod to your final thought. Yes, it is too bad. Try to purge use of
"THE metaphysics of Quality" from your posts and see if that helps
bring clarity to you. It should.
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