In the thread that Ham titled "The MoQ agency problem" he said to dmb:
... Rejecting the subjective self as the locus of awareness not only
contradicts epistemology, it forces the MoQist to replace human agency with
hypothesized domains that are allegedly responsible for organizing/guiding
conscious thoughts, ideas, morality, and intellectual enlightenment as
functions of evolutionary process. By positing everything as "interrelating
patterns of Quality", we reduce the individual to a mere pawn controlled by the
forces of a physical universe.
dmb replies:
Okay, I understand that your concern is with the agency of individuals. I can
also see that you believe the rejection of the subjective self undermines the
agency of individuals. Addressing your concerns would be several steps down the
road. If we ever got that far down the road you'd see that the rejection of the
subjective self has almost nothing to do with your concerns. If you are ever
going to see that, the first thing to do is gain an understanding of what the
subjective self actually is and the reasons for its rejection by James, Pirsig,
Dewey and other radical empiricists. To that end, I offered you a passage from
a Wiki article. I can tell by your response that you did not comprehend that
passage, not even a little bit. (This is very frustrating for me.) Here's the
line that really killed me....
Ham said:
Does "nondual 'sciousness'" add anything meaningful to ontology or metaphysics?
It seems to me that any quality ending in 'cious' -- "precious", "delicious",
"malicious", "fallacious", etc. -- may be categorized as a type of "ciousness",
if one wishes to hide the meaning of the prefix.
dmb says:
Yes, this non-dual awareness adds something meaningful to metaphysics. In the
MOQ, this non-dual awareness is called Dynamic Quality. It is the central topic
of both books. If you don't understand this part of the MOQ, then you
understand nothing about the MOQ. This non-dual awareness is also the starting
point of James's radical empiricism, which is explicitly adopted by Pirsig. In
that context, James refers to this non-dual awareness as "pure experience". As
the Wiki article put it, Sciousness "refers to consciousness separate from
consciousness of self" and this notion "throws the question of who the knower
really is wide open". Also, Pirsig and James are both perfectly aware of the
fact that this notion "contradict[s] the fundamental assumption of every
philosophic school." That is precisely the point, to contradict that
fundamental assumption. This is also the fundamental assumption behind your
concerns, Ham. "James had founded a new school of philosophy, called 'radical
empiricism,' and non-dual Sciousness was its starting-point." Again, James
and Pirsig are deliberately contradicting those assumptions for a reason and
you need to understand that before you can understand anything else about the
new school of philosophy that we are here to discuss. Until then you will
remain completely lost.
The dualism they are rejecting with this non-dual awareness is called
subject-object metaphysics or, as we refer to it around here, simply SOM.
Rejecting SOM doesn't make people disappear. It doesn't mean we're mere pawns
controlled by the physical universe. The MOQ says that Man is the measure of
all things, is a participant in the creation of all things. You're unlikely to
ever find a philosophy that is more centered on human agency than these guys
are offering. It is human centered and freedom is the highest good but in a way
that's more profound than even Jefferson could have imagined, but it's not
about individualism or egotism either. I mean, your concerns that the MOQ would
undermine such ideals is unfounded and only reveals a lack of understanding on
your part.
I have been trying to help - from time to time - but your response always shows
that you're just not getting it.
"What the Metaphysics of Quality would do is take this separate category,
Quality, and show how it contains within itself both subjects and objects. The
Metaphysics of Quality would show how things become enormously more
coherent--fabulously more coherent--when you start with an assumption that
Quality is the primary empirical reality of the world...."
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