Et tu Brutus? On Aug 5, 2010, at 2:22 PM, John Carl wrote:
> John butts in to the Arlo and Marsha show: > > >> [Marsha] >>> Yes, it denotes Reality = Quality(unpatterned experience/patterned >> experience). >> > > John: > > Marsha, m'dearie, does this statement equate to SQ or DQ? I mean, for me, > it's something I've heard before, and because you've got a an undefined term > over a tautology - unpatterned experience is a non-existent and otoh, since > experience IS patterning... Marsha: Not so, but there is no way to demonstrate this. I can only state there are techniques one can use, meditation for instance, but there are others. It is best discovered first-hand. > But since it's a high Quality statement for you, I assume it's a High SQ > formulation. What I'm wondering then, is if this high SQ is blocking any DQ > in your intellectual patterning, since you sorta default to it over and > over, like a programming bug or a clinging to the one felt and known and > trusted? Marsha: l imagine this last bit makes sense to you, but it doesn't to me. I certainly can get into the MoQ as intellectual volleyball, but that will not be the same as "unpatterned experience/patterned experience", not even close. >>> [Arlo] >>> So there is "Quality", and then there is the "Metaphysics of Quality" >> which >>> describes Quality as being Reality. And yet you don't think this is a >>> "definition"? >> > > John: > > Hey Arlo. I think the point could be made. The problem with the word > "definition" is the limits it places. It's a way of saying, here's the > limit. So I don't see the MoQ as a definition, so much as a process of > defining, infinitely and creatively. I don't think this is a "definition". > > > > Arlo: > > >>> Also, is a "label" a static pattern of value? If not, what is it? >> According to >>> the Metaphysics of Quality, there is only DQ and SQ (static patterns of >> value), >>> if the Metaphysics of Quality is not a static pattern of value, and not >> Dynamic >>> Quality, you are introducing a new metaphysical aspect, "labels", that >> are >>> neither DQ nor SQ into the mix. >> > > John: > > An again, if fully fleshed out, a fully viable meta-twist. "Labeling" is > synonomous with discriminating. The process of discriminating is based upon > betterness. Conceptualization IS Reality, you could make a pretty good > argument for that, I think. > > But DQ and SQ have as their own metaphysical basis, the self-referential > fact of their own labelness. And ... and... I don't wanna go there at the > mo'. Having just got back from re-creating and vacating. > > > > > >> Marsha: >> For me the MoQ represents, denotes, signifies, Reality = >> Quality(unpatterned >> experience/patterned experience). >> >> > > John: > > Yes, and how does that make you feel? Or to put it the way Ron, often does, > what good does it do? Where does this "represent" come in handy in the real > world? Marsha: Find out for yourself, John. You once told me you were a totally rationally-based person. So was the question of feelings addressed to me because you project me as a mommy? And could you handle any kind of explanation beyond rationality according to your own self-description? > That's what I'm always itching to know. Pragmatic value. Marsha: Lots of pragmatic value, but you will need to experience it for yourself. >>> [Arlo previously] >>> Right, so you DO NOT think the "Metaphysics of Quality" is a definition >>> or an analysis at all? >>> >>> [Marsha] >>> Within the Intellectual Level it represents ZMM, LILA, Lila's Child, and all >>> interviews, dvds, letters, papers and discussions used to divide, define >>> and know it. >> > > > John: > > I'd add one other factor. It represents the listeners, as well as the > speaker. There's an author, sure. But moreso than any other metaphysics or > philosophical movement, it is an avowedly open and invitational system. > > I mean, it'd have been simple at any time in the history of the MoQ, for > Pirsig to just make it exactly according to plan. Instead, Bob went a > different way. Lila's child is explicitly, part of an MoQ that includes the > reader, the interpreter as part of the dialogic process and that's... unique > I think in the field of lonely philosophers on their mountain tops with > quills in hand. Marsha: Okay. >>> [Arlo] >>> What you are describing are things to divide, define and know Quality. Of >> these >>> things, Pirsig's metaphysics is one. >>> >>> In other words, the "Metaphysics of Quality" is an attempt to divide, >> define >>> and know Quality. >>> >>> Remember the "it's all just an analogy" in ZMM. Do you not think that the >>> "Metaphysics of Quality" is one such analogy used to talk about Quality? >>> >>> You really seem to confuse the undefinable (Quality) with Pirsig's >> attempt at a >>> definition (the Metaphysics of Quality). >> >> Marsha: >> For me, once the defining and analysis has started the 'MoQ' has dropped >> into >> the Intellectual Level where it represents ZMM, LILA, Lila's Child, and all >> interviews, letters, dvds, papers and discussions used to divide, define >> and >> know it. >> > > John: > > Well we're rubbing up against my old problem with "the intellectual level" > again. Because the way you people have got the "intellectual level" in a > rationalistic and classically oriented box, you completely do away with the > better half of human mental ability. The romantic side, the artistic side. Marsha: What's this "you people"? "I" don't have anything mixed up. > These two sides have to be united, or the whole thing doesn't work. It's > very low quality to suffer under either ugly science or art that doesn't > make any sense. Marsha: I don't see things as you have them divided. > I can understand why some people feel like giving up. I'm going to try and > make a sensible argument why they shouldn't. A hard task, but hey, if I'm > gonna take on the label, better put on the shoes. I've never seen Little Shop of Horrors or the GaGa girl. >> [Marsha] >>> Your label is Arlo. My label is Marsha. >> > > > Mine is John the Idealist. Always glad to greet you. This is for you John. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmhP1RgbrrY Marsha ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
