On Aug 6, 2010, at 12:05 PM, John Carl wrote: > Marsha, > > Found it! > > On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 12:03 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> Et tu Brutus? >> >> > Now I can see how you might take it that way, so let me clarify and > reinterpret somewhat.
Marsha: I should use eMotives more often. I was teasing. I appreciate you taking what I say seriously. And if you disagree, that is fine. > First off, my pleading for the balance of romantic/classic as the > intellectual level, is met more consistently by you Marsha, than any other > member of this list. You bring a much needed romantic quality to the MoQ > and are heavily outweighed by all the classically oriented intellectuals > which dominate such a metaphysical discussion as this. So I sure don't > want to make you feel ganged up on. Marsha: Arlo can play a tough game, but I was both serious and playing too. > So let me readdress my points in a way that hopefully doesn't make you feel > quite so stabbed in the back. > > John prev: > >> >>> But since it's a high Quality statement for you, I assume it's a High SQ >>> formulation. What I'm wondering then, is if this high SQ is blocking >>> any DQin your intellectual patterning, since you sorta default to it >>> over and over, like a programming bug or a clinging to the one felt >>> and known and trusted? >> >> Marsha: >> l imagine this last bit makes sense to you, but it doesn't to me. I >> certainly canget into the MoQ as intellectual volleyball, but that >> will not be the same as"unpatterned experience/patterned >> experience", not even close. >> >> > > John: > Intellectual volleyball? Cute. I like it. Everybody has their own > set moves, their own particular patterns. Now, you often offer us, this > "unpatterned experience/patterned experience" as your own particular > favorite leap up and spike over the net. Which from my perspective, > sends the ball out of bounds. > > "out of bounds", in intellectual discourse, means it's irrational. When you > say "unpatterned", you can't really mean NON-patterned. There is no such > thing as "non-patterned". However I do believe there is experience that is > non-intellectual. That is, there is patterning that is transcendant of > intellectuality and I suspect that is what you mean by the experience to be > found in meditation. Marsha: Present without value added, and that is unpatterned. Aware without value added, and that is unpatterned. Sight without color, form, identification or emotions. > Since we define the boundaries of play as "rationality", then, any > experience which describes "transcendant of rationality" as being part of > the game is a logical contradiction. And yet, the MoQ does exactly this and > thus, you make a good point. However you can only leap up and spike if > somebody sets it up for you. > > Do you see the problem? Marsha: There is unpatterned experience. > me neither. But it's starting to take a fuzzy shape in my mind. Marsha: A dropping away of the value added patterns. >>> John: >>> >>> Yes, and how does that make you feel? Or to put it the way Ron, >>> often does, what good does it do? Where does this "represent"come >>> in handy in the real world? >> >> Marsha: >> Find out for yourself, John. You once told me you were a totally >> rationally-based person. So was the question of feelings addressed >> to me because you project me as a mommy? And could you handle >> any kind of explanation beyond rationality according to your own >> self-description? >> >> > > John: > > I misspoke before. I'm not totally rationally-oriented. I'm actually kind > of balanced on the classic/romantic continuum. I've always been more > in touch with my touchy-feely side than most guys. I like to have both, > science that is artful and art that makes philosophical sense. Marsha: I think of you as artist/philosopher. > As far as my mommy needs, I don't really have any. This is I-Ronic because > it's my mom's greatest problem - she always gave me lots of affirmation and > love as a child, which made me self-sufficient with a strong ego that > doesn't need her approval now that I'm an adult and frustrates the hell out > of her. Whereas my brother Ron, whom she didn't much like as a child, is > very dependent upon her opinion, and thus easily manipulated and thus is > now her favorite. > > God life is funny! > > Anyway, believe me, you don't wanna project yourself into MY mommy > issues because they are messy. Marsha: You asked me how it made me feel. During: quiet. Afterword: quite joyful. >>> That's what I'm always itching to know. Pragmatic value. >> >> >> Marsha: >> Lots of pragmatic value, but you will need to experience it for yourself. > > > John: > > I mean pragmatic value in dialogue, in helping to get the other, in helping > to formulate common understanding. Marsha: An unpatterned experience is a powerful reference on which to compare patterned experience. Rather than an intellectual 'not this, not that', it is a directly experienced 'not this, not that'. Insightful! OOooohhhhhh!!!!!! It's a powerful experience. I'm sure if I was studying with a knowledgeable guru he would tell me it was not so important, but on my own it felt like I had a glimpse of a major not this and not that. >>> John: >>> >>> Well we're rubbing up against my old problem with "the intellectual >>> level" again. Because the way you people have got the "intellectual >>> level" in a rationalistic and classically oriented box, you completely >>> do away with the better half of human mental ability. The romantic >>> side, the artistic side. >> >> Marsha: >> What's this "you people"? "I" don't have anything mixed up. > > > > John: > > Well I do see you as leaning heavily away from the classical side of > intellection and more toward the romantic side, so kudos there. But, you > do chime in with Bo in assessing the intellectual level itself as being > SOM, and that to me is "doing completely away with the better half of > human mentation". Marsha: That's strange because I spend quite a bit of time trying to analyze how my mind works. I've noticed I can only be serious for so long, then I must break loose and do something outrageous. And it is good to do so. I definitely agree with Bo that the Intellectual Level is comprised of patterns with a SOM base. I think RMP has stated art requires patterns from all levels: inorganic, biological, social and intellectual, and that seems to be so, with a large dose of heart. In ZMM it was head, hands and heart, and it's beyond intellectual analysis is my bet. >>> These two sides have to be united, or the whole thing doesn't work. >>> It's very low quality to suffer under either ugly science or art that >>> doesn't make any sense. >> >> Marsha: >> I don't see things as you have them divided. >> > > > John: > > I don't think they should be, but they are by the assertion that SOM is the > intellectual level. Marsha: The problem with the Intellectual Level is accepting its patterns as reality rather than a very useful tool. It is why my unpatterned experiences have been so powerful. Rather than "reality" intellectual patterns can be playful tools. That dvd 'Between the Folds' is a perfect demonstration of scientists playing with intellectual patterns. Very dynamic!!! > We see things differently. That's a good thing. That's how we can help > each other. Marsha: At least celebrate each other. > >> >>> I can understand why some people feel like giving up. I'm going to >>> try and make a sensible argument why they shouldn't. A hard task, >>> but hey, if I'm gonna take on the label, better put on the shoes. >> >> I've never seen Little Shop of Horrors or the GaGa girl. Marsha: The shoe reference confused me. > John: Uhh.. me neither. When I posted that, I was thinking of Dave T, and > his announcement of giving up... and waves and particles and where they > meet. > > WaveDave has always been amongst my favorite posters on this forum. > The first to really dialogue with me when I first joined years ago, and > author of some of really good stuff. I've been wanting to discuss zoning > as reality for some time, but I never really got around to it, and then he > went and posted some really excellent ideas about it and I hope he > returns. Marsha: The longing can cause frustration, but its with heart. There have been weeks when I've been tempted to throw my computer into the lake. Or at least a few books, but one goes through it. Time away can be important. I hope Dave returns too. > > longingly, > > John joyfully, Marsha ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
