>From the view Quality = unpatterned experience/patterned experience, it is all > ever-changing, interdependent, relative, impermanent value, but this doesn't explain how intellectual patterns of value function and why they are flawed. Maybe the question should be forbidden.
On Sep 18, 2010, at 7:37 PM, MarshaV wrote: > > > > Marsha to dmb: > > So that's it? Somebody asks how does the MoQ put feelings and passions > back into rationality, science and mathematics, you tell them you do not > understand the question. You did state that your version of "the MOQ's > fourth > level gives us an expanded form of rationality that includes feelings, > passions, > alternate modes of consciousness" but you cannot explain how. > > The question was about the fourth level within the MoQ, intellectual patterns > of > value. > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sep 18, 2010, at 6:31 PM, david buchanan wrote: > >> >> dmb said: >> According to the MOQ, the intellectual level includes all intellectual >> static patterns and all intellectual thought styles, such as classical and >> romantic for example. These patterns are derived from experience and their >> veracity depends on their ability to function in experience. The MOQ's >> reconceptualization of the intellect is predicated on a rejection of >> subject-object metaphysics, the conceptual framework that reifies subjects >> and objects. (The MOQ says subjects and objects are concepts, not entities.) >> Unlike SOM, where the paramount demand is for objectivity and disinterested >> observation, the MOQ's fourth level gives us an expanded form of rationality >> that includes feelings, passions, alternate modes of consciousness and all >> the other categories of experience formerly dismissed as "merely" subjective. >> >> Marsha asks: >> How are feelings, passions and other modes of consciousness included back >> into rationality? How are they included back into science? How are then >> included back into mathematics? How? >> >> >> dmb says: >> >> I'm really not sure what you're asking. There isn't just one way to include >> the affective domain and there is not a set of rules or procedures that will >> tell you. And that's sort of the point. Pirsig is saying that philosophy and >> science are art forms and so is motorcycle maintenance and so is putting >> your outdoor grill together. As the title of David Granger's book indicates, >> the Pirsig's work (and Dewey's) is about the art of living. Pirsig >> identifies attitudes of scientific objectivity as the problem. Millions of >> people respond to this, he says, "by abandoning 'square' rationality >> altogether and going by feelings alone. Like John and Sylvia here." But >> Pirsig says that direction is just as wrong. He's saying, "that the solution >> to the problem isn't that you abandon rationality but that you expand the >> nature of rationality so that it's capable of coming up with a solution." >> (ZAMM, p. 169) That's what the MOQ is all about. In all of the following >> quotes, the emphasis is Pirsig's in the original: >> >> >> "But we know from Phaedrus' metaphysics that harmony Poincare talked about >> is NOT SUBJECTIVE. It is the SOURCE of subjects and objects and exists in an >> anterior relationship to them. It is NOT capricious, it is the force that >> OPPOSES capriciousness; the ordering principle of all scientific and >> mathematical thought which DESTROYS capriciousness, and without which no >> scientific thought can proceed. What brought tears of recognition to my eyes >> was the discovery that these unfinished edges match perfectly in a kind of >> harmony that both Phaedrus and Poincare talked about, to produce a complete >> structure of thought capable of uniting the separate languages of Science >> and Art into one." (ZAMM, p. 269-70) >> >> "No, he did nothing for Quality or the Tao. What benefited was reason. He >> showed a way by which reason may be expanded to include elements that have >> previously been unassimilable and thus have been considered irrational. I >> think it's the overwhelming presence of these irrational elements crying for >> assimilation that creates the present bad quality,.." (ZAMM, p. 257) >> >> >> "But now we have with us some concepts that greatly alter the whole >> understanding of things. Quality is the Buddha. Quality is scientific >> reality. Quality is the goal of Art. It remains to work these concepts out >> into a practical, down-to-earth context, and for this there is nothing more >> practical or down-to-earth than what I have been talking about all along - >> the repair of old motorcycle." (ZAMM, p. 276) >> >> "I want to show that that classic pattern of rationality can be tremendously >> improved, expanded and made far more effective through the formal >> recognition of Quality in its operation." (ZAMM, p. 278) >> >> >> "The difference between a good mechanic and a bad one, like the difference >> between a good mathematician and a bad one, is precisely this ability to >> SELECT the good facts from the bad ones on the basis of quality. He has to >> CARE! This is an ability about which formal traditional scientific method >> has nothing to says. It's long past time to take a closer look at this >> qualitative preselection of facts which has seemed so scrupulously ignored >> by those who make so much of these facts after they are "observed." I think >> that it will be found that a formal acknowledgment of the role of Quality in >> the scientific process doesn't destroy the empirical vision at all. It >> expands it, strengthens it and brings it far closer to actual scientific >> practice." (ZAMM, p. 281-2) >> >> >> "This eternally dualistic subject-object way of approaching the motorcycle >> sounds right to us because we're used to it. But it's not right. It's always >> been an artificial interpretation SUPERIMPOSED on reality. It's never been >> reality itself. When this duality is completely accepted a certain >> nondivided relationship between the mechanic and the motorcycle, a >> craftsmanlike feeling for the work, is destroyed. When traditional >> rationality divides the world into subjects and objects it shuts out >> Quality, and when you're really stuck it's Quality, not any subjects or >> objects, that tells you where you ought to go." (ZAMM, p. 282) >> >> >> >> "In the past empiricists have tried to keep science free from values. Values >> have been considered a pollution of the rational scientific process. But the >> Metaphysics of Quality makes it clear that the pollution is from threats to >> science by static lower levels of evolution: static biological values such >> as the biological fear that threatened Jenner's smallpox experiment; static >> social values such as the religious censorship that threatened Galileo with >> the rack. The Metaphysics of Quality says that science's empirical >> rejection of biological and social values is not only rationally correct, it >> is also morally correct because the intellectual patterns of science are of >> a higher evolutionary order than the old biological and social patterns. But >> the Metaphysics of Quality also says that Dynamic Quality - the value-force >> that chooses an elegant mathematical solution to a laborious one, or a >> brilliant experiment over a confusing, inconclusive one - is another matter >> altogether. Dynamic Quality is a higher moral order than static scientific >> truth, and it is as immoral for philosophers of science to try to suppress >> Dynamic Quality as it is for church authorities to suppress scientific >> method. Dynamic value is an integral part of science. It is the cutting >> edge of scientific progress itself." (LILA, p. 365-6) >> >> >> "In the past our common universe of reason has been in the process of >> escaping, rejecting the romantic, irrational world of prehistoric man. It's >> been necessary since before the time of Socrates to reject the passions, the >> emotions, in order to free the rational mind for an understanding of >> nature's order which was as yet unknown. Now it's time to further an >> understanding of nature's order by reassimilating those passions which were >> originally fled from. The passions, the emotions, the affective domain of >> man's consciousness, are a part of nature's order too. The central part." >> (ZAMM p. 294) >> >> >> “…The ‘through-and-through’ philosophy [Absolutism] …seems too buttoned-up >> and white-chokered and clean-shaven a thing to speak for the vast >> slow-breathing unconscious Kosmos with its dread abysses and its unknown >> tides.…Their persistence in telling me that feeling has nothing to do with >> the question, that it is a pure matter of absolute reason, keeps me for ever >> out of the pale. …To speak more seriously, the one fundamental quarrel >> Empiricism has with Absolutism is over this repudiation by Absolutism of the >> personal and aesthetic factor in the construction of philosophy. That we all >> of us have feelings, Empiricism feels quite sure. That they may be as >> prophetic and anticipatory as anything else we have, and some of them more >> so than others, can not possibly be denied. But what hope is there of >> squaring and settling opinions unless Absolutism will hold parley on this >> common ground; and will admit that all philosophies are hypotheses, to which >> all our faculties, emotional as well as logical help us, and the truest of >> which will at the final integration of things be found in possession of the >> men whose faculties on the whole had the best diving power?" (William James >> in ABSOLUTISM AND EMPIRICISM, p.96) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > ___ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
