Thx for the reply ,Dan, yes i was aware of the refused permission, strange case, caught my attention.
I will study your answer tomorrow, probably in the evening , the huntingseason started out here. I have to go out, shoot some ducks. 2010/10/16 Dan Glover <[email protected]> > Hello everyone > > On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 12:15 PM, ADRIE KINTZIGER <[email protected]> > wrote: > > ADRIE KINTZIGER aan moq_discuss > > details weergeven 10:22 (8 uren geleden) > > > > Thanks for sharing this one, Dan, so true,----"Dan: > > > > This discussion is centered around the MOQ. I write stories myself and > > share them from time to time with the group but it is my hope that > > others may see the value there and how it pertains to the MOQ. I am > > not an autobiographer. And I realize someone reading my stories may > > not understand that, just as someone reading Robert Pirsig's writings > > may take a lot of what he writes as truth. I recall Mary getting upset > > that he would have an affair with a bar lady while he was still > > married. And yet he told me himself that he was Lila, and the boat, > > and the rest of the story as well. That's what I am driving at. You > > are the story. How does your life pertain the MOQ. You. Not the > > people or places in your life. Do you see what I mean? I know I am > > explaining myself poorly but it is a difficult subject." > > > > > > What a pearl,what a force, "you are the story" > > Yes! perfect. > > thanks > > > > 2010/10/16 Dan Glover <[email protected]> > > - Tekst uit oorspronkelijke bericht weergeven - > > > > > > > > Coming back for now, this moment , having some more spare time and needed > to > > read back the conversations, i came to > > think of it as this, .. > > "LILA" is a mirrorimage of ourselves, if we are reading LILA, we are > looking > > into the mirror, asking ourselves, do we have > > quality,? Do i have quality?, so the question is not ' does lila...etc, > 'no, > > the question is , do we have...etc. > > And in this optic, Pirsig and his LILA are teaching quality, dhyana, > dynamic > > quality,...by not teaching it at all, the teaching > > is the part in the mirror, look at yourself to find the answer on the > > projected question. > > The mirror is reflecting every one of us, every proces, every value, to > be > > examined by ourselves,about ourselves. > > So he is teaching quality after all, nothing else,by not teaching > quality, > > but Virtue, to examine ourselves,...making this our goal. > > Hi Adrie > > Yes that is a great way of looking at LILA. It is the more difficult > of Robert Pirsig's 2 books which is why I think this discussion group > is still going strong after some 13 years. There are so many levels > within the story and of course a metaphysics must contain everything > in order to do what it's meant. > > > > > The mirror is showing all our patterns, the value's, the preferences.So > we > > can answer the question, does LILA has quality,... > > Dan: > > I think Mr. Pirsig tells Anthony McWatt that LILA was originally > conceived as a case study of what is known as Joshu's koan: A monk > asks: "Does a dog have Buddha nature, or not?" Chao-chou replied: "He > does not." Yet according to Buddhist teachings, everything has Buddha > nature. Over the centuries, many scholars have debated why, if all > insentient and sentient beings have Buddha nature, a dog would not. It > is the same with LILA. When confronted by Rigel on whether Lila > Blewitt has quality, Phaedrus automatically says: Yes! So in a sense, > he is contradicting the given answer to the koan. > If you say yes, you are damned. If you say no, then the Buddhist > belief that everything has Buddha nature is wrong. So throughout LILA, > Phaedrus argues one way and then another. Yes, Lila has quality. No, > quality has Lila. And this is the great insight that Mr. Pirsig > offers, which basically turns the koan on its head and shocks us into > seeing quality in a different light. > > > > > > The answer was always there, "we" have quality, "we" have patterns of > value, > > "we" are the patterns, the value's, the rocks > > the water, the ocean's ,the air, we are Dhyana, virtue and value, zen and > > science at the same time. > > Dan: > The answer is there, yes. We don't have value. Value has us! > > > > > So , in reflection of the letter you presented , Dan, I think my opinion > is > > about this. > > At least some aspects of quality can be teached, framed, captioned, by > > teaching people to ask the right questions,writinr> the secrets of the > words, unrevealing their quality, embedded within the > > question to project at ourselves. > > But of course, not all aspects of quality can be halted to study, or to > > study ourselves, its impossible to hold the ocean > > in the palm of your hand.....or the moon, or gravity, nor they , (the > > patterns) can be ignored, no matter how hard you ignore the ocean, > > gravity, or quality, it will not leave,it cannot leave. It can never > leave > > us. > > Dan: > Exactly! The Eastern way is to go inward. The Western way is to go > outward. By marrying the two, the MOQ expands on both the > irrationality of the East and the rationality of the West. > > > > > > > To make some reflections on your considerations about LILA'S CHILD, and > the > > work you performed on the material that was avaliable > > -Have to say this, The work, the importance, the biggest importance for > me > > is that you did it without contaminating the material, > > without trailering along with it to induce a widget of your own, a niche, > a > > product or a remark, You left everything in its value's > > At the same time, you studied the availiable material so intensively, > that > > you became one with the value's, the projected and embedded virtue...., > yes > > , the light my literary friend, you became aware of the light, the light > of > > EL GRECO in the painting, he did not need to paint it after all. > > He expirienced it. > > He was one with it, as Pirsig is writing.---stunning beauty, framed > forever. > > It was there all the time. > > Dan: > Well, in a sense I couldn't do the work without contaminating it. I am > not sure that I understood that at the time. The founder of the Lila > Squad became quite furious with me at the time and refused permission > to use her work. Over the years, I see better now what she was saying > at the time, even though I still don't agree with her. I think > Marsha's objection to LILA'S CHILD has merit as well, though again, I > am not sure how to overcome such a quandary. It is what it is. > > > > > > > > > So yes , the letter you shared is of importance, at least some aspects of > > quality can be teached , by looking into the mirror. > > Thank for your appearances , Dan. > > Dan: > You are welcome, Adrie. And thank you too. It is always a pleasure to > read your posts. > > Dan > > > > > greetzz, Adrie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2010/10/16 ADRIE KINTZIGER <[email protected]> > > > >> Thanks for sharing this one, Dan, so true,----"Dan: > >> > >> This discussion is centered around the MOQ. I write stories myself and > >> share them from time to time with the group but it is my hope that > >> others may see the value there and how it pertains to the MOQ. I am > >> not an autobiographer. And I realize someone reading my stories may > >> not understand that, just as someone reading Robert Pirsig's writings > >> may take a lot of what he writes as truth. I recall Mary getting upset > >> that he would have an affair with a bar lady while he was still > >> married. And yet he told me himself that he was Lila, and the boat, > >> and the rest of the story as well. That's what I am driving at. You > >> are the story. How does your life pertain the MOQ. You. Not the > >> people or places in your life. Do you see what I mean? I know I am > >> explaining myself poorly but it is a difficult subject." > >> > >> > >> What a pearl,what a force, "you are the story" > >> Yes! perfect. > >> thanks > >> > >> 2010/10/16 Dan Glover <[email protected]> > >> > >> Hello everyone > >>> > >>> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 1:38 PM, John Carl <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>> > Hello Everyone, > >>> > > >>> > Dan: > >>> >> > >>> >> Quite possible. But if your style is being a clown, then we have > very > >>> >> little to discuss. I tend to suffer fools poorly... that's my style. > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> > Understood. I've been certainly told many times in my life, "we have > >>> very > >>> > little to discuss" and I've believed it every time. Takes two to > tango > >>> and > >>> > some people aren't comfortable with my steps, rhythm or style. No > >>> problem. > >>> > >>> Dan: > >>> I enjoy humor so don't get me wrong... but there's a difference > >>> between being humorous and being a clown. I enjoy our discussions very > >>> much. Yet there are times when we have to peel back the onion (so to > >>> speak) to get at a deeper meaning to the MOQ. And I tend to get the > >>> impression that you're not so much interested in doing that as you > >>> are... how do I put it... falling back to your own insights rather > >>> than focusing on the discussion at hand. And I know we've been over > >>> this before and it didn't go so well. I don't mean to say that I don't > >>> want your insights. But I would prefer that you presented them in > >>> terms common to the MOQ. That way the discussion could move forward. > >>> Sometimes I get the impression that you are looking to one-up Robert > >>> Pirsig rather than understand what he is saying. And of course he can > >>> be wrong. But still, it seems better to develop an understanding of > >>> the MOQ first, which I cannot see that you have done. > >>> > >>> > > >>> > > >>> >> Dan: > >>> >> No candles needed but a bit of reverence doesn't hurt. > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> > I take everything seriously, nothing is sacred; I take nothing > >>> seriously, > >>> > everything is sacred. Trite, but true. > >>> > >>> Dan: > >>> That's fine. But it's also only so much b.s. > >>> > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> >> Climbing the mountain is tough enough. > >>> >> > Bearing great burdens will not help me climb. > >>> >> > >>> >> Dan: > >>> >> I guess that is where we differ. If as you say you're taking a > serious > >>> >> risk, then it seems to me it might behoove you to take thngs a bit > >>> >> more seriously. Write like it's the last thing you will ever do, for > >>> >> it just might be. Anything less is just cheating yourself, in my > >>> >> opinion, of course. > >>> >> > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > I appreciate your sharing your opinion, Dan. Always. Although, if > as > >>> you > >>> > say, "we have little to discuss" because you don't like my style, > it's > >>> hard > >>> > to figure out how any constructive criticism about my style can > occur. > >>> For > >>> > constructive criticism you need an open mind, right? > >>> > >>> Dan: > >>> Well, you are the one who clowns around. I don't care for that. So > >>> yes, the discussion won't go far. I don't mean to criticize you one > >>> way or the other. I only offer a possible solution to the impasse that > >>> we seem to come to time and again. > >>> > >>> > > >>> > And I still don't quite get how anything like I've done, written, > >>> > communicated, expressed - could be construed as anything BUT serious > >>> when > >>> > I'm carving out part of my life, from a whole list of obligations and > >>> > committments, to empty myself of everything but devotion to this one > >>> task. > >>> > If that's not serious, then I have no idea what you mean by the term. > >>> > >>> Dan: > >>> This discussion is centered around the MOQ. I write stories myself and > >>> share them from time to time with the group but it is my hope that > >>> others may see the value there and how it pertains to the MOQ. I am > >>> not an autobiographer. And I realize someone reading my stories may > >>> not understand that, just as someone reading Robert Pirsig's writings > >>> may take a lot of what he writes as truth. I recall Mary getting upset > >>> that he would have an affair with a bar lady while he was still > >>> married. And yet he told me himself that he was Lila, and the boat, > >>> and the rest of the story as well. That's what I am driving at. You > >>> are the story. How does your life pertain the MOQ. You. Not the > >>> people or places in your life. Do you see what I mean? I know I am > >>> explaining myself poorly but it is a difficult subject. > >>> > >>> > > >>> > On the other hand, if you mean by irreverential, and you're talking > >>> about my > >>> > attitude toward holy bob, or whatever, then... got an askance glance > at > >>> you > >>> > out of the corner of my eye, a sad shaking of the head and a slow > >>> saunter > >>> > away. I got my standards too, and neither do I suffer fools or > >>> foolishness > >>> > without comment. > >>> > > >>> > Well, sometimes I do. When it seems like a good idea. > >>> > >>> Dan: > >>> > >>> I don't believe in hero-worship. Still, I don't believe it is right to > >>> disrespect people either. But that's just me. It is how my father > >>> raised me. > >>> > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Dan: > >>> >> Phaedrus cared enough to take a holy journey but he didn't care > enough > >>> >> to realize what it was he was undertaking. That is my point, for > what > >>> >> it's worth. > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> > > >>> > I'm not so sure I completely agree with you (and him). I mean, I > know > >>> it > >>> > sounds silly to argue with the guy's own words on paper, but there > are > >>> > shortcut intellectualizations of deeper meanings that we can't or > don't > >>> have > >>> > time to express, in all we do. And giving up on the mountain has > many, > >>> many > >>> > roots in the decision process. For instance, some people spend their > >>> whole > >>> > lives dwelling in the alluvial plains and save up all their rupees > for > >>> just > >>> > once an opportunity to look down on their own existence. they value > >>> > climbing the mountain in one way. > >>> > >>> Dan: > >>> > >>> I am not sure what you mean by 'shortcut intellectualizations of > >>> deeper meanings.' But let me try and tell you where I am coming from > >>> and why I quoted that bit from ZMM on holiness. Take my work on LILA'S > >>> CHILD as an example. Despite Marsha's sarcasm, I don't think anyone > >>> who has not been through such an experience can appreciate the deeper > >>> meaning of setting a goal so high that it is impossible to acheive and > >>> then going ahead and acheiving it. Like Phaedrus and his holy quest... > >>> he looked at it as an opportunity for personal growth and experience. > >>> But that's not what it is about. The holy quest is about giving > >>> oneself up entirely to something you neither understand nor know the > >>> outcome. It is like Carlos Castenada jumping into the abyss so dark > >>> and deep, having to gather the totality of himself without even > >>> knowing what that is, and just letting go. > >>> > >>> There are no shortcuts to such an experience and one never knows when > >>> such an opportunity will arise. Thinking about it only takes one > >>> further away, not closer. So we seem to disagree on a very fundamental > >>> level when it comes it holiness, which a person find a bit surprising > >>> knowing you are the more religious of the two of us. But the holiness > >>> that I speak of has nothing to do with religion. Perhaps it is like > >>> reading about zen and practicing zen... something along those lines. > >>> It seems many contributors here are well-read when it comes to Eastern > >>> philosophy but few actually put that knowledge into practice. Zen > >>> isn't something a person can read about. It just isn't. I don't care > >>> how many books a person reads, they will never know about zen in an > >>> intellectual way. > >>> > >>> > > >>> > But to an old cowboy from the continental divide? Maybe not so much. > >>> > Maybe, been there, done that, know what the view is from the top. A > lot > >>> of > >>> > small ponderings go into any question of why we value or choose what > we > >>> do. > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > And for Phaerus in that time, the feeling of dislocation, the > differing > >>> > social and cultural supports produce a depressive state - the > opposite > >>> of > >>> > "the home team advantage" and you sudden just don't care about > climbing > >>> > anymore. Heck, happens to all of us. > >>> > >>> Dan: > >>> Now see, you don't get it. It wasn't that he didn't care. He did. He > >>> just didn't care in the right way. That kind of caring isn't something > >>> one thinks about. One feels it deep down, as if life itself depended > >>> on it. > >>> > >>> > > >>> > And some people stop climbing, because the same value to be found at > >>> the > >>> > top of the mountain, can be found in the heart of the moment - no > effort > >>> > needed. So why climb? > >>> > >>> Dan: > >>> That I cannot answer for you. You have to answer that for yourself. > >>> > >>> > > >>> > What I'm saying is, there are lots of ways of "caring" that mattered > >>> more > >>> > than the many anonymous pilgrimages that have gone on for centuries > and > >>> made > >>> > it back to the bottom, and died, and never wrote anything. Caring > >>> enough to > >>> > take a holy journey, means you don't always know in advance where > it's > >>> gonna > >>> > end, or what detours its gonna take. That is my point, for what it > is > >>> > worth. > >>> > >>> Dan: > >>> Life is a holy journey. That is what the pilgrimages are all about. No > >>> one has to write about it or think about it or be told about it. And > >>> of course no one knows what is going to happen in advance. That is our > >>> Western way. The sun rises every day. > >>> > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> >> Dan: > >>> >> Maybe we are speaking past one another. In the quote above, there > are > >>> >> 4 'I's' and 2 'me's' so I suspect your hero is ego-climbing too. But > >>> >> who knows? > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> > Hmmm... ego climbing. There is a sense in which "ego-climbing" could > be > >>> > said to be whole enchilada. The evolution of consciousness from and > >>> into > >>> > the cosmos, assimilating patterns infinitely - an expanding self, the > >>> ego- > >>> > climbing to allness of being. > >>> > >>> Dan: > >>> No. Ego-climbing is personal gain. It is me, me, me. > >>> > >>> > > >>> > Yeah, I can see how that could be a good thing. But what comes with > the > >>> > connotation is social competition - like I'm higher than you so > neener, > >>> > neener, neener. I'm more selfless than you are. Sometimes, what is > >>> there > >>> > to do but laugh? > >>> > >>> Dan: > >>> Exactly. But one doesn't have to tell anyone anything when it comes to > >>> reverence. That is beyond social and intellectual values into Dynamic > >>> realms. > >>> > >>> > > >>> > I'd prefer to think of our endeavors as a good thing. An evolving > >>> > understanding of ourselves and our world, where our ego-climb is also > >>> > boosting those around us. Not stomping on heads or fingers, but just > >>> like > >>> > real serious mountain climbing - roping and pitons and belays and > >>> teamwork. > >>> > >>> Dan: > >>> As I said, there ain't no school and no one is giving out any grades. > >>> > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > But hey, that's me, mr. idealist. > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> >> Dan: > >>> >> No. As he states, he is being logically foolish. > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> > I think he's being logically rigorous about the way logic is a > >>> foolishness > >>> > that magically produces meaning, like a rabbit from a hat. But > >>> admittedly, > >>> > my background is different, having read a great deal of him. But it > >>> comes > >>> > in handy as a logical defense of foolishness, which I seriously > thought > >>> I > >>> > might need but it's hard to say where this is going. > >>> > >>> Dan: > >>> I would have to read more than just a few quotes, of course, and that > >>> type of reading doesn't interest me at all. I'd never get through it > >>> though. I am not a philosopher nor do I read it... unless I have > >>> trouble sleeping, then it helps lull me. > >>> > >>> > > >>> > Of course I am not sure... it was merely an observation. No need to > >>> >> fall on your knife or anything. > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> > Well I'm pretty sure its not going there! > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> >> > >>> >> Dan: > >>> >> Coyote the trickster often ends up tricking only himself, or so I > >>> >> understand. > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> > dude, you nailed it. so many times and in oh so many different > ways... > >>> but > >>> > as long as it makes a good story, it's all worth it. Chuckle and you > >>> rhyme > >>> > with the cosmic joke. > >>> > >>> Dan: > >>> > >>> Well, sure. In a certain context, I agree. But the story has to have > >>> some value, some meaning. Otherwise it is just so much clowning around > >>> and the joke is on you... in my opinion, of course, > >>> > >>> Thank you, > >>> > >>> Dan > >>> > >>> > > >>> > John > >>> > Moq_Discuss mailing list > >>> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >>> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >>> > Archives: > >>> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >>> > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > >>> > > >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >>> Archives: > >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> parser > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > parser > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > -- parser Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
