Hello Dan, You're mostly right, so it's a shock when you can be so wrong.
Dan comments: > > The shock that Phaedrus is talking about is that moment you discover > that you don't know what you think you know. The student knows what > quality is. Everyone knows what quality is. But when confronted with > actually explaining what quality is, they fail, just as you have > failed, John. The shock isn't in what is said. The shock occurs when > the student discovers that they cannot explain what everyone knows. > > The reason for this seems to have something to do with ego-climbing > versus selfless climbing. You are clowning around with the question, > just as Phaedrus was clowning around with the mountain. Here's where you're wrong. You've confused my style with my motivation. > You are trying > to best the mountain for reasons of your own instead of sensing the > holiness of the quest(ion). You can do better but for reasons of your > own, you just don't care enough. > Holiness Dan? Should I light some candles or something? Not my style. I'm more along the lines of the holy goof. Holiness freezes. Holiness strikes fear and trembling and knocks us to our knees, incapacitated, unmoving. Unwriting. For what if what we said was silly or wrong? What if my words are rejected? When I care enough to write, when I care enough to think of words to communicate myself, I'm taking a risk. A serious risk! And serious things can only be treated with lightness. Climbing the mountain is tough enough. Bearing great burdens will not help me climb. You say I don't care enough! I cared enough to try. I cared enough to make the attempt. I care enough to risk getting my paper flung back in my face by a scowling instructor. I care Dan. More than you'll ever know. I'm sitting in a lonely, crowded house. All the good stuff has been ripped out and taken away and all the junk that nobody knows what to do with - junk from 5 kids and 20 years of living - is piled around and inundates my existence. But nevertheless I have this time, this precious little piece of time. Three months. Then I have to either have something to show for my time, or give it up for good and stick to being a truck driver for the rest of my life. All my communication with the world will be one-way, me listening to the radio. And you don't think I care? How could I not? I care enough to try. Sorry it's not good enough. I'll try some more. Meanwhile, don't you want to be a writer? Show us how it's done. Write of your own good mind, 500 words addressing the question, what is Quality in thought and statement. I'm sure it'll be better than mine, but I don't care about ego, I care about writing. I want to see it. > >John: > > A connection > > beyond mere grammer's purview or control. > > Dan: > See what I mean? You are ego-climbing. > > John: No Dan. I don't see how seeking connection with words is "ego climbing". In fact, I'd say it's a description of just the opposite. That to connect with an other person, I have to think about them. One of my heroes, describes it thusly: "Meaning is uncertain; therefore I must constantly fine-tune my language and work at reinterpreting the words I hear. I try to understand what the other person says to me. All language is more or less a riddle to be figured out; it is like interpreting a text that has many possible meanings. In my effort at understanding and interpretation, I establish definitions, and finally a meaning. The thick haze of discourse produces meaning. All of intellectual life (and I use the word "all" advisedly) even that of specialist in the most exact sciences, is based on these instabilities, failures to understand, and errors in interpretation, which we must find a way to go beyond and overcome. Mistaking a person's language keeps me from "taking" the person--from taking him prisoner. We are in the presence of an infinitely and unexpectedly rich tool, so that the tiniest phrase unleashes an entire polyphonic gamut of meaning, The ambiguity of language, and even its ambivalence and its contradiction, between the moment it is spoken and the moment it is received produce extremely intense activities. Without such activities, we would be ants or bees, and our drama and tragedy would quickly be dried up and empty. Between the moment of speech and the moment of reception are born symbol, metaphor and analogy. Through language I lay hold of two completely different objects. I bring them together, establishing between them a relationship of similarity or even identity. In this manner I come to know this distant, unknown object, through its resemblance. It becomes intelligible to me, because through language I have brought it near this other one that I know well. Tis an astonishing process, and logically a foolish one. It is obviously an indefensible operation, yet there it is, utterly successful, utterly enlightening." You think Ellul is just "clowning around" here, Dan? Dan: > John, sense the holiness of the mountain and you will see that > explanations have nothing to do with quality. That is the shock that > you are refusing to see. Your ego is in the way. > John: Are you sure Dan? Because earlier, in that ZAMM quote of yours, Pirsig said it was almost impossible to tell the difference between the holy climbers and the ego climbers. So it makes me leery of external judgements and I'd like to be really, really sure before I go throw myself off a cliff or whatever. Perhaps it's rather that Ego is in the way. There is Ego throwing up walls between us, and since you're so sure it's mine, that proves to me its yours. Ego can be tricky, Dan. I think I'll try step Two. I think I'll keep climbing this mountain. I may be doing it all wrong, with my clowning, but if you ask me, the only way you get to the top is by enjoying the process. > >John: > > I'd rather sacrifice an 'A" than screw up good rhetoric with padding. > > Dan: > This ain't no school and there ain't no grades. There is only the > selfless sense of holiness. Let that guide your writing and the answer > will blossom without effort. > > Gee Dan, that's what I thought I was doing. But my "blossom without effort" looks like nothin' but weeds to you. What can I say? That sounds like a trap of some kind. What can I do? Go on to step two. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
