Hello everyone On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 1:55 PM, John Carl <[email protected]> wrote: > Hello Dan, > > You're mostly right, so it's a shock when you can be so wrong.
Hi John Well, at least you're shocked. That's a start. > > Dan comments: >> >> The shock that Phaedrus is talking about is that moment you discover >> that you don't know what you think you know. The student knows what >> quality is. Everyone knows what quality is. But when confronted with >> actually explaining what quality is, they fail, just as you have >> failed, John. The shock isn't in what is said. The shock occurs when >> the student discovers that they cannot explain what everyone knows. >> >> The reason for this seems to have something to do with ego-climbing >> versus selfless climbing. You are clowning around with the question, >> just as Phaedrus was clowning around with the mountain. > > > > Here's where you're wrong. You've confused my style with my motivation. Dan: Quite possible. But if your style is being a clown, then we have very little to discuss. I tend to suffer fools poorly... that's my style. > > > >> You are trying >> to best the mountain for reasons of your own instead of sensing the >> holiness of the quest(ion). You can do better but for reasons of your >> own, you just don't care enough. >> > > Holiness Dan? Should I light some candles or something? Not my style. I'm > more along the lines of the holy goof. Holiness freezes. Holiness strikes > fear and trembling and knocks us to our knees, incapacitated, unmoving. Dan: No candles needed but a bit of reverence doesn't hurt. > > Unwriting. > > For what if what we said was silly or wrong? What if my words are rejected? > When I care enough to write, when I care enough to think of words to > communicate myself, I'm taking a risk. A serious risk! And serious things > can only be treated with lightness. Climbing the mountain is tough enough. > Bearing great burdens will not help me climb. Dan: I guess that is where we differ. If as you say you're taking a serious risk, then it seems to me it might behoove you to take thngs a bit more seriously. Write like it's the last thing you will ever do, for it just might be. Anything less is just cheating yourself, in my opinion, of course. > > You say I don't care enough! I cared enough to try. I cared enough to make > the attempt. I care enough to risk getting my paper flung back in my face > by a scowling instructor. Dan: Phaedrus cared enough to take a holy journey but he didn't care enough to realize what it was he was undertaking. That is my point, for what it's worth. > > I care Dan. > > More than you'll ever know. I'm sitting in a lonely, crowded house. All > the good stuff has been ripped out and taken away and all the junk that > nobody knows what to do with - junk from 5 kids and 20 years of living - is > piled around and inundates my existence. But nevertheless I have this time, > this precious little piece of time. Three months. Then I have to either > have something to show for my time, or give it up for good and stick to > being a truck driver for the rest of my life. All my communication with the > world will be one-way, me listening to the radio. Dan: I've been alone for close to 15 years now. The home I shared with my family is long gone. I lost it along with everything else I ever cared about. But you know what? If I hadn't, I wouldn't be talking to you good people right now. And slowly, I have rebuilt a life for myself that is quite fulfilling. I see the grandkids when I can but of course the kids are busy with their own lives. I also helped raise 5 children. As for being a trucker, it never appealed enough to me to actually do it. I do what I can to earn a living with my hands or my wits. I prefer my wits but as I said, I do what I can. >And you don't think I > care? How could I not? I care enough to try. Sorry it's not good enough. > I'll try some more. Meanwhile, don't you want to be a writer? Show us how > it's done. Write of your own good mind, 500 words addressing the question, > what is Quality in thought and statement. I'm sure it'll be better than > mine, but I don't care about ego, I care about writing. I want to see it. Dan: But John, I already did. > > > > >> >John: >> > > >> A connection >> > beyond mere grammer's purview or control. >> >> Dan: >> See what I mean? You are ego-climbing. >> >> > John: > > No Dan. I don't see how seeking connection with words is "ego climbing". > In fact, I'd say it's a description of just the opposite. That to connect > with an other person, I have to think about them. > > One of my heroes, describes it thusly: > > "Meaning is uncertain; therefore I must constantly fine-tune my language > and work at reinterpreting the words I hear. I try to understand what the > other person says to me. All language is more or less a riddle to be > figured out; it is like interpreting a text that has many possible > meanings. In my effort at understanding and interpretation, I establish > definitions, and finally a meaning. Dan: Maybe we are speaking past one another. In the quote above, there are 4 'I's' and 2 'me's' so I suspect your hero is ego-climbing too. But who knows? > > > The thick haze of discourse produces meaning. > > > All of intellectual life (and I use the word "all" advisedly) even that of > specialist in the most exact sciences, is based on these instabilities, > failures to understand, and errors in interpretation, which we must find a > way to go beyond and overcome. > > > Mistaking a person's language keeps me from "taking" the person--from taking > him prisoner. > > > We are in the presence of an infinitely and unexpectedly rich tool, so that > the tiniest phrase unleashes an entire polyphonic gamut of meaning, The > ambiguity of language, and even its ambivalence and its contradiction, > between the moment it is spoken and the moment it is received produce > extremely intense activities. Without such activities, we would be ants or > bees, and our drama and tragedy would quickly be dried up and empty. > > > Between the moment of speech and the moment of reception are born symbol, > metaphor and analogy. > > > Through language I lay hold of two completely different objects. I bring > them together, establishing between them a relationship of similarity or > even identity. In this manner I come to know this distant, unknown object, > through its resemblance. > > > It becomes intelligible to me, because through language I have brought it > near this other one that I know well. Tis an astonishing process, and > logically a foolish one. It is obviously an indefensible operation, yet > there it is, utterly successful, utterly enlightening." > > You think Ellul is just "clowning around" here, Dan? Dan: No. As he states, he is being logically foolish. > > > Dan: >> John, sense the holiness of the mountain and you will see that >> explanations have nothing to do with quality. That is the shock that >> you are refusing to see. Your ego is in the way. >> > > John: > > Are you sure Dan? Because earlier, in that ZAMM quote of yours, Pirsig > said it was almost impossible to tell the difference between the holy > climbers and the ego climbers. So it makes me leery of external judgements > and I'd like to be really, really sure before I go throw myself off a cliff > or whatever. Perhaps it's rather that Ego is in the way. There is Ego > throwing up walls between us, and since you're so sure it's mine, that > proves to me its yours. Dan: Of course I am not sure... it was merely an observation. No need to fall on your knife or anything. > > Ego can be tricky, Dan. > > I think I'll try step Two. I think I'll keep climbing this mountain. I may > be doing it all wrong, with my clowning, but if you ask me, the only way you > get to the top is by enjoying the process. Dan: Coyote the trickster often ends up tricking only himself, or so I understand. > > > >> >John: >> > I'd rather sacrifice an 'A" than screw up good rhetoric with padding. >> >> Dan: >> This ain't no school and there ain't no grades. There is only the >> selfless sense of holiness. Let that guide your writing and the answer >> will blossom without effort. >> >> > Gee Dan, that's what I thought I was doing. But my "blossom without effort" > looks like nothin' but weeds to you. What can I say? That sounds like a > trap of some kind. What can I do? Dan: I already told you that. Practice reverence. That's all. Ignore me if you want. It makes no difference in the end. Thank you, Dan Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
