Hi Adrie, Did you miss the part about direct harm to others? And are you not glad that Americans, many of whom live by the creed I believe in, freed your country from the Nazi boot?
I'm constantly amazed at the lack of gratitude from those the U.S. has liberated. Platt. On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 6:35 PM, ADRIE KINTZIGER <[email protected]>wrote: > As for not believing in any religion, you're wrong. I believe in the > religion > of individual liberty to think and act as one wishes (without direct harm > to > others) and to accept responsibility for the consequences of one's choices > in > life -- the religion of "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable > Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. > > > Hitler was not showing direct harm to his own environment on the > "Adelaarsnest"mountain, > Hitler took all responsability and consequenses personally, together with 6 > million evaporated jews and 20 million > european's, The number of Americans that died on Omaha, Utah, etc beach > remains unknown until today. > There are no exact figure's about Poland, Russia, Oekraine, etc. > The pursuit of life liberty, and happiness was called the surch for > 'Lebensraum", space to live. > > > 2010/10/20 <[email protected]> > > > Hi Steve, > > > > >> Steve: > > >> I haven't been following moq,org for a while. Did I miss the part > > >> where you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior? It is my > > >> understanding that you don't accept the truth of any of the world's > > >> religions, yet you seem to be arguing here that religion is > > >> nevertheless necessary. Necessary for _other_ people. You seem to > > >> think that you are defending religious people, but on the contrary, > > >> your view is entirely condescending towards them. You see them as > > >> dangerous children who need religion to keep them under control so > > >> they don't turn into Pol Pots. Though you don't believe in virgin > > >> births, living gods, and the like, you think that it is good for other > > >> people to believe such falsehoods. Maybe you are right (I don't think > > >> so) but let's at least be clear about which one of us is treating > > >> religious people as responsible selves who have worth as individuals > > >> and would prefer not to be deceived about the world and which one of > > >> us treats human beings as sheep who need comforting falsehoods. Unless > > >> I missed something and you have recently found Jesus, then your > > >> so-called respect for faith is no more than condescension. > > > > >> Platt > > > You appear to transferring a lot of your own feelings towards > "religious > > > people" to me. I don't think a lot of the moral teachings of various > > > religions are "falsehoods," nor do I think persons of faith are > > necessarily > > > "deceived." > > > > Steve: > > This is a typical Platteral shift. The question was not about whether > > religions have any true moral beliefs. Of course they do, and since > > religions contradict one another's moral teachings they also obviously > > have a lot of false moral beliefs. > > > > Platt > > Likewise the fact that many scientific teachings have been proven false > > indicates that whatever pronouncements science might make about morality > > may > > also be false. The faith you place in reason is like a Christian's faith > in > > the > > resurrection. > > > > Steve > > If there are any people of faith > > who are not deceived (if one religion actually is true), then there > > are certainly millions who are deceived. > > > > Platt > > Likewise, science has deceived millions again and again. It's latest > > deception - > > -global warming. > > > > Steve > > The question is what is the basis for moral truth? Is it (1) the > > authority of prophets and clerics? Or is it (2) the fact that some > > things are better than others and therefore the distinction between > > good and bad is open to rational inquiry? > > > > Platt > > Rather the questions are 1) Are you going to ignore the lessons of > history > > about social relations, or 2) Do you believe neuroscientists like Harris > > can > > lead us to Utopia? > > > > Platt: > > >Rather I think anyone who thinks they know better than > > > other people about spiritual matters is not only deceiving himself, but > > > poses a danger to others. Certainly history shows that to be the case. > > > > Steve: > > You have just summarized many of my greatest concerns about pretty > > much every religion. I suppose you subscribe to that one religion that > > does not claim to have knowledge of spiritual matters that others > > don't have? If like me, you recognize that history has shown that > > people thinking that they know better than others about spiritual > > matters has been disastrous and criticize this practice, you should > > understand that this is decidedly _not_ a defense of religion. It is a > > criticism of pretty much every organized religion. > > > > Platt > > Yes, and the same applies to science and scientists who may think, > > rationally, > > that they have superiority about spiritual matters. > > > > Platt: > > > What I know is that I know little. So I don't condemn an entire group > > > who, by their acts of charity, may have something of value to teach me. > > > > Steve: > > Another Platteral shift. No one is condemning any groups en mass or > > any acts of charity. Your defense of religion here is pure > > condescension given that you don't believe in any religion. > > > > Platt > > If you say so. Likewise, I could charge you with condescension towards > > those > > who don't put their faith in science and reason as you do. But, what is > to > > be > > gained by launching such personal attacks? > > > > As for not believing in any religion, you're wrong. I believe in the > > religion > > of individual liberty to think and act as one wishes (without direct harm > > to > > others) and to accept responsibility for the consequences of one's > choices > > in > > life -- the religion of "endowed by their Creator with certain > unalienable > > Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > > > -- > parser > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
