On Nov 9, 2010, at 2:09 AM, [email protected] wrote: > Marsha, > my comments below, > Tim > > > [From the conversation between Marsha and Tim] > >> >> Marsha: >> There is no object of analogy; there is only process/experience. >> An analogy is a process pointing to a process pointing to a process >> etc., etc., etc. >> >> Are your preferences a type of object? Or process? > > [Tim] > I am thinking both, simultaneously... > > let me ask: what pointed to the analogy/process/experience at the > outset?
Marsha: Good question. I cannot imagine how any answer I offer will not be false. > Is there such a boundary I can rightfully call the 'outset'? Marsha: Quality(DQ-unpatternred experience/sq-patterned experience) >> Marsha: >> Relatively close, maybe? What should we inform that naughty Social >> Level? How about that freedom's just another word for nothing left to >> lose. > > [Tim] > am I giving this too much consideration? It is hard for me to be > certain, but I think you chose these words carefully too. How do you > describe your relation to the process? Are you the process? I am > really running myself over teh coals here trying to see what role others > play in the process. Help please! Another person would only want > freedom from the process (independence) if they hated teh process and > felt they had nothing left to lose? Experience/process. You process. Me process. I do not hate the process, but see that mistaking the process for acquirable objects is mistaken identity. In forgetting this I often create suffering. >> Marsha: >> I don't see it that way. I see it as Quality(unpatterned experience/ >> patterned experience), pure process, no thing, no absolute. > > >> Marsha: >> Knowing it doesn't mean one has the best words to talk about it. In fact >> talking about it may prevent one from knowing it. It's the Mother of all >> paradoxes. ... But I cannot think what is more important. Really. >> >> Knowing for me has taken on a rather odd flavor. I've read, and it >> seems true, that the best way to approach Quality (Ultimate Truth) is >> by discovering what is false. >> > > [Tim] > ha ha! I think I see. Ultimate Truth rather than absolute ... Fine > ... I concur: it seems that it is Ultimate Truth that bounds the process > at the outset. Do you see? :-) > Perhaps it is a leap of faith, but mustn't an ultimate > truth be a thing, qua thing. Marsha: An ultimate truth has much thing-y-ness as my good and very classy little poodle Bebe. > [Tim] > Maybe then we can even conserve your > distaste for thing-y-ness in the process; I mean, I definitely agree > that the thing-y-ness of common things is either illusory in teh hard > sense, or perceptual in the soft sense... But in the realm of ideas, > cant a thing be a thing? (I think that this use runs through what I > have already said) Marsha: Sure, a thing is ever-changing, interdependent, impermanent static patterns of value. >> Marsha: >> >> Paradox! >> >> Maybe if I become enlightened the words will flow like honey. But at >> the moment they bounce and ramble like analogies. But I try my best. >> >> DQ is sq, sq is DQ. Isn't it a miracle that we are here, in this forum, >> touching Quality? >> > > [Tim] > with my new found perspective of faith, being seemingly banal - thus > transcendant - it seems that there might be place for 'miracle' in my > lexicon, and that it's proper use is in the seemingly banal. That the > Idea of a motorcycle can faithfully exist and can actually lead to the > illusion of a working material motorcycle which, via DQ, simultaneously > grants the illusory perceptions of riding that motorcycle: whoa! that > felt real! Miracle! Marsha: Are you making fun I my using the word miracle? One minute I am encouraged to speak in this s-o oriented language and in the next moment I am ridiculed for doing so. I'm kidding. You are getting the idea. Miracle! But while this is all wonderful, there is also a dark side: greed, hatred, ignorance and arrogance. >>> either way, the question is: isn't the goal of all this just to get out, >>> and by out I mean intellectually out of the intellectualization of a >>> distorted image of the past, and matterially, into a material pattern, >>> fairly constituted, and especially so regarding: social individuals - >>> organized based on the best that the intellectual level has to offer? >> >> Marsha: >> I am not so far enough along that I can see the end of the tunnel, but I >> might >> guess that it is good to understand intellectualization as a pretty good >> tool, >> but nothing more. I want to say something about what makes your heart >> skip >> a beat, or takes your breath away. Bumpity, bump - bump - bounce... >> > > [Tim] > I wonder about two independent ideas interacting. Miracle!! Marsha: Miracle! >>>> [Marsha] So if we agree on "ever-changing, interdependent, impermanent, >>>> inorganic, biological, social and intellectual static patterns of value," >>>> I am pleased. >>> >>> [Tim] >>> I think I have one correction: (actually two, the first is that, as I >>> recall, I left out 'of value' the first time) I have to leave off ' >>> static patterns'. Perhaps it is best to put back "of value" ---> >>> "ever-changing, interdependent, impermanent, inorganic, biological, >>> social, intellectual _________________ of value". I guess, we both >>> believe we need to use some uncertainty. I just think there is value to >>> using some in the blank too. I guess I'm suggesting that, to me, it >>> seems like, in saying 'static pattern', you are finding outlet for the >>> "absolute" you were lacking before. And that phaedrus would suggest >>> that that outlet should rather come as a faith in the absoluteness of >>> some You, which Knows Quality. >> >> Marsha: >> I know it is a cliche, but the journey is the destination. And I suppose >> that >> makes me the journey. > > [Tim] > if you are an idea, you can be A limitless journies Marsha: You are a miracle. Byeeee. Marsha ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
