John said:
... what kind of society doesn't have intellectual guidance? All human
society's are formed by ideas. Even the most primitive tribe and culture, weave
a meaning for their lives out of a mythic and religious context that is partly
intellectual and partly aesthetic. But if you want to argue about the
pre-socratice greeks or primitive american tribes as being 100%
non-intellectual, I'll save that for another day and add, even so, the vast
preponderance of social groups extant today are guided by various intellectual
ideas.
dmb says:
The most primitive tribe is intellectually guided? Not the way Pirsig uses the
word. As you may recall from Lila, he thinks socially guided societies would
include Victorian America, which still hasn't quite given up the fight for
control. To say that a culture is socially guided is NOT to say it is
meaningless or stupid, although the Victorian culture was that too. In any
case, I think Pirsig draws a line between the two that you're not acknowledging
properly. Maybe it would help to look thru those chapters on the conflict
between social and intellectual values in 20th century history.
John said:
At the same time, intellectual dominance is largely decided by social patterns
- gathering agreement and persuading others to "join our side". There's
probably no more intellectual world in the world, than a faculty meeting, but
also no place more devoted to social-type politics and gaming.
dmb says:
You're confusing the issue. If something is decided by social patterns then you
couldn't rightly call it intellectual. That would be the definition of guidance
by social level values. I don't see why a faculty meeting should be anything
more than social. It's just about institutional logistics and such. It's not
supposed to serve any scientific or philosophical purposes directly even if
it's the faculty of Harvard. In any case, I think you misunderstand the
social-intellectual distinction almost entirely.
dmb said:
Wouldn't it be equally evil to make the MOQ the servant of theism? I think so.
John replied:
I agree completely. What I don't agree with, is your clear aspersion that that
has been happening or would happen if it weren't for super-dave and his heroic
opposition.
dmb says:
Heroic super-dave? As usual, I'm very impressed with your graciousness and
generosity. Stay classy, John.
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