Ok, Arlo, I went over this a bit elsewhere, so we'll just skip right to the points needing more coverage.
[Arlo] > It takes two earthworms too (although I hear they are less picky about who > gets > to be the girl and who gets to be the guy). > > John: If you mean it takes more than mere numbers to be "a social pattern" well, I do agree with you there. It takes a consciousness of self and other, that I don't think earthworms posses. Mammalian nurture, is how I think social patterns are born. And I think this is one reason why computer intelligence is impossible. There's such a vast complex of realization - mental-biological analogues - necessary for the birth of comprehension or consciousness. A vast neural-chemical matrix that can't be replicated machine-fashion. But that's another topic for another day. Arlo: I agree that modern human social patterns present a socially-mediated > complex > ritual of negotiation in order to "control" who gets to who, but I think > this > is conflating two levels unnecessarily. > > John: Well I'm sure enough that you can never BUT conflate the intellectual and the social. They blend in a continuum and are only distinct at extreme ends. This is an important metaphysical point, I keep coming back to again and again, and I understand it is not quite "the orthodoxy", but that's because the orthodoxy is wrong. My irreverent and easily dismiss-able judgment is that often the extremely intellectual are the most blind to intellect's dependence upon social reality. [John] > Even rape is a sociopathic behavior rather than a merely biological urge. > In > fact, it's pretty widely known that rape is due more to rage issues than > mere > horniness. > > [Arlo] > Of course, and this is the evidence of the intellectual level coming in and > dominating the social level. It is the intellectual level (rape laws) that > defines the act of "rape" as a crime of violence and controls social > patterns > that would place shame and humiliation on the victim. > John: I dunno, Arlo. Rape is tricky. For instance, in Leviticus, there's a difference between rape in the village and rape in the countryside. For rape in the countryside you had to pay a fine, but for rape in the village it was just naturally construed as consensual and you can see the logic there, but also the idea that those herdsmen back then treated procreative activities far differently than we do today. Furthermore, it's mainly confined to humans. In the animal world, the alpha male expresses sexual behavior as its expression of dominance and breeds in season and there's no such thing really. So I'd say fundamentally I agree that rape is by law and of intellect. WHooP!WHooP!WHooP!WHooP! Insight Alert, insight alert! Rape is an intellectual definition because otherwise it's the biggest and strongest, not the smartest, who get to breed. That's a key realization, that is. That just came to me. Arlo: > > As I said, if we look at cultures dominated by social values (modern one, > or > even historically our own), we can easily see how social patterns dealt > with > "rape"; shame and humiliation (since the act is seen as sexual the victim > is > tainted as well), based on the ownership and property of the woman by the > husband (again, there was no such thing as a husband "raping" their wife). > > John: Right. It's not the act itself, it's within a social matrix which "where we draw the line" has been intellectually determined. Arlo: > "Fear", of course, we do see initially on the biological level. Sneak up > behind > a deer and yell "BANG!" and you'll see a non-social biological response. John: You say "biological" because you're talking about an organism that has biologically evolved "prey reactions". So in that sense, yeah, it's a biological beast we're talking about. But in the sense of one individual (prey) reacting to an other (predator), the heart-pounding fear is more directly that of other - a social otherness, rather than the mere reactions to a biological being. For a deer doesn't have the same fear of other deer, or non-predators as I'm reminded of years ago in a walk in the woods, and finding a stag with a huge rack and ring-tailed cat, walking together along my path. Who you are in a social matrix determines your biological reactions. Arlo: > These > responses can be mediated by social patterns, so you could train that deer > not > to be afraid, but I don't think anyone had to first train the deer socially > TO > be afraid. > > John: Well I'd say these social reactions rather are being intellectually mediated then. As when a man intellectually trains a beast, or himself even to display a different reaction than "normal". Like how not to run from a bear, because he intellectually knows that such behavior will not have the social outcome desired. (!) But if they were just autonomous biological reactions, there'd be no control over them at all. They'd come like breathing, or heart beating, or chemical reactions of adrenaline, which occur naturally through intrinsic biological action. Arlo: > "Love", on the other hand, is hard to think of as not mostly social. John: Ya think? At least when it's done right. Arlo: > I suppose > you could argue its rooted in a physiologically-based need to mate or not > be > alone, but then I would expect to see "love" on the biological level. And > other > than looking at anthropomorphic actions of non-humans I am not sure how > we'd > even look for it. (Professing disagreement with Pirsig, I'd say the > evidence > that your dog "loves" you is the result of social activity between you and > the > dog, not a physiological function of the dog's biochemistry.) > > John: Love, like rape is tricky. We have a certain view of romantic love, that seems unique, that seems to be absent from most cultures and species and warps our sense of this word, imo. At least insofar as attributing that "love" to anything outside our cultural experience. But a bond of caring between individuals, however you call it, is what makes the world go 'round, no doubt about that at all, Arlo. Take care, John Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
